[identity profile] camille-love.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] revolution_fr
...so, in lieu of reading for my exams (what's WRONG with me?!), I've been trying to clear my head by skimming through a historical novel published about a year ago, simply titled Revolution, by Jennifer Donnelly. First of all, it's technically for "young adults" (the protagonist is a high school senior). Second of all, its perspective on the Revolution is (surprise) very naive and, well, high school. I started reading it last night and I'm almost done now. But, for all its flaws and blatant royalist sympathies, I can't deny that part of me kind of enjoys it. It's kind of like, The Da Vinci Code only with the French Revolution. So, even while I'm groaning over the history and politics, I can't stop reading because it's a page-turner and I'm hooked on the silly plot! Below is the description from Amazon.com:

BROOKLYN: Andi Alpers is on the edge. She’s angry at her father for leaving, angry at her mother for not being able to cope, and heartbroken by the loss of her younger brother, Truman. Rage and grief are destroying her. And she’s about to be expelled from Brooklyn Heights’ most prestigious private school when her father intervenes. Now Andi must accompany him to Paris for winter break.
PARIS: Alexandrine Paradis lived over two centuries ago. She dreamed of making her mark on the Paris stage, but a fateful encounter with a doomed prince of France cast her in a tragic role she didn’t want—and couldn’t escape.
Two girls, two centuries apart. One never knowing the other. But when Andi finds Alexandrine’s diary, she recognizes something in her words and is moved to the point of obsession. There’s comfort and distraction for Andi in the journal’s antique pages—until, on a midnight journey through the catacombs of Paris, Alexandrine’s words transcend paper and time, and the past becomes suddenly, terrifyingly present.

If you have some time to waste (not likely, given that you all seem like intelligent, productive people) and are in the mood for some very lightweight, very not-to-be-taken-seriously fiction, then go for it.

EDIT:  Please forget that I ever suggested reading this book (unless you're reading it in order to write a vehement, public rebuttal of its contents).

Date: 2011-11-06 04:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
Well...For light it seems it's a very light fiction. I don't know if I would waste my time to read it...However, if you did (and you seems bright enough since I've read all your interventions here at LiveJournal) the book must be something appaling.

At least...Did you like it?

Date: 2011-11-06 05:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supercrook.livejournal.com
I picked up this book, and actually liked some parts of it, but I couldn't put up with the modern-day high school parts. I was only in it for the French Revolution bits, but I desperately want to know how it ends now.

Date: 2011-11-07 02:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] supercrook.livejournal.com
I was pretty annoyed to start with how such a privileged modern person (who admitted to this privilege) got a glimpse into the past and then immediately sympathized with people in comparable privilege. I don't always mind characters being written with strong Royalist sympathies, and it's possible to write say, Marie Antoinette as someone a modern character would side with, but I'm just really very sick of "they're rich, I'm rich, so everyone else must be... evil!"

Date: 2011-11-06 06:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
It sounds like it would annoy the hell out of me, but more because I'm really sick of royalist propaganda being put into the hands of teenagers who are unlikely in the vast majority of cases to have any kind of critical distance from it, especially in the absence of any opposing viewpoints (probably because most people who are for the Revolution realize that it's too complex a subject to make into light reading starring moody adolescents - though that said, I'm sure there must be a more intelligent way to write a novel about the Revolution for teenagers, or indeed people of any age, since most novels for adults don't seem to escape those awful clichés either, especially in the English-speaking world). Well, that and the name Alexandrine Paradis is about the worst name for a character I've ever seen, even if she is an aspiring actress.

Thanks for bringing it to our collective attention though; it never hurts to be up to date on what's out there.

Date: 2011-11-07 12:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
Agreed; equating mental illness with evil is about on the same level with equating unattractiveness with evil (unsurprisingly, the two often show up together).

Though I find the whole concept of Robespierre suffering from a mental illness somewhat baffling. Most other "theories," regarding Robespierre, however crazy, can be traced back to *something* even if that something is just a Thermidorian pamphlet. But I don't even know where this one came from - not only is there, as far as I can tell, absolutely no evidence for it, there don't even seem to have been rumors to that effect in Thermidorian propaganda or the memoirs of people who lived through the Revolution or anything like that.

Maybe they just extrapolated it from those ridiculous psychoanalyses that attribute all of Robespierre's thoughts and actions to his having lost his parents at a young age (as if this were particularly rare in the 18th century), or perhaps from people like Keith Baker's pathologizing of the Revolution in general, but it still doesn't make any sense to me.

Date: 2011-11-07 04:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
Some serious stupidities were written about Robespierre's supposed mental illness in few old books. Von Hentig's and Kretschmer ones are the worst of them all, but they are *almost* hysterical on their own...Kretschmer claims that also Couthon was pretty crazy and wrote that he suffered from arterioesclerosis, "because it was the illness of professional revolutionnary" (Ugh!) , and Von Hentig tries to convince us that Maximilien was a paranoid, an schizoid and wa s jealous of Danton's virility...so, he killed him.

Furthermore, the French author Bernard Nabonne, who wrote "Robespierre's Private Life", traced the roots of Maximilien's crazyness in his own father. he claims that François de Robespierre was more crazy than his son, so old Maximilien (Robespierre's Grandpa), puts him at a convent to have him far from home ,since he would embarrase the whole family before Arras good society.Plain bullshit...

The worst of it is that these are not supposed to be fiction, but history works. No wonder that fiction authors could be pretty absurd if even historians would write down those delirious ideas...

Date: 2011-11-08 06:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
I guess that explains it to some degree. When were Von Hentig and Kretschmer writing? I actually have Nabonne's book, but I've only read the sections relevant to the Duplays, so I didn't know he thought Robespierre (or his father) was crazy. He did have a disturbing tendency to credit even the most improbable rumors though - like that idiotic idea that Robespierre would ever have suggested that a bunch of pigs follow the army feeding on dead soldiers and feeding living ones. At least there though the rumor in question does, I believe, go back to the time of the Revolution, whereas I've been unable to pinpoint where the insanity myth first pops up.

Someone ought to inform these authors that when you're writing history, you need a little something called *evidence* for your claims.

Date: 2011-11-08 10:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
Von Hentig wrote his book in the 1930's or so. He was a bolshevik and must run Germany when Hitler reached power. Kretschmer wrote his later, after 1946...I don't know exactly the year. He was an expert in "morphologic psychology". He supported the idea that a physical morphology will be followed for a certain psychological behavior. For Kretschmer, Danton was an "athletic" and Robespierre an "asthenic"...and like some asthenix he could easily be an esquizoid...Oh, well.

If you have the Nabonne, please read the first part of the book. It's priceless in the bad sense of the word. The anecdote of the pigs made me laugh. I know I must not...but the whole idea is so idiotic that I couldn't help it.

I think that Robespierre's "insanity" must come from some Thermidorian pamphlets. Some of them are just unbelievable and ridicoulous...but some people still takes them seriously. Fréron pointed out that Maxime was always clenching his fist and had a lot of facial tricks and would walk nervously....maybe some "historians" took these depiction to assert that Maximilien was insane

Date: 2011-11-09 01:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
It's as I suspected then: claiming Robespierre was insane is a 20th century phenomenon. When someone doesn't like him in the 19th century they tend to settle for "evil demagogue." In any case, regarding Fréron's portrait of Robespierre, I don't think he meant to portray him as insane, but I guess I can see how people might have taken it that way if they felt so inclined.

I don't have the Nabonne with me, but I will definitely go back and give it another look when I'm home. It sounds like it has the potential to be unintentionally hilarious (there were, of course, already parts like that in the section I read).

Date: 2011-11-09 05:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
It IS hilarious, believe me! :D

Date: 2011-11-08 04:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
Stanley Loomis said just the same. He thinks that one of the reasons Mme. Roland rejected Danton was his uglyness... :(

Date: 2011-11-08 06:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
I think at least part of the reason Danton's physical appearance is mentioned so often is that he himself referred to it in a speech, which is pretty unusual. That said, I think Marie-Hélène Huet is right in arguing that Danton, like Robespierre, has been turned into a kind of "revolutionary monster" by historiography and fictional portrayals alike: the "minotaur" to Robespierre's "sphinx," as she has it.

As for Mme Roland, I honestly can't remember whether she mentions Danton's appearance in her memoirs and I haven't read her correspondance, but even if she does, I doubt it had quite the influence it's often claimed to have had.

Date: 2011-11-13 04:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
Did Danton said something over the lines of "my ugliness is my strenght"? I think this was the sentence he mentioned in a speech.

Date: 2011-11-13 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
He said, I believe, "Nature has given me the harsh physiognomy of liberty." There is a certain extent to which Danton overemphasized his own appearance - though it was of course further exaggerated later. Interestingly, the commentary the journal the Révolutions de Paris gives to this speech is that Danton's references to his appearance were out of place and inappropriate. Apparently Robespierre's views on the matter were not unique.

Date: 2011-11-08 06:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
They always seem to claim to have done a lot of research, don't they? Carolly Erickson, the one who came up with Robespierre the "Green Ghoul" calls herself a historian. But to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if she had got the idea on a royalist internet forum, which, as far as I can tell, seems to be the place the myth of Robespierre's insanity has the most currency

Date: 2011-11-07 12:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
Okay, ew. That might seriously be worse than Carolly Erickson's "Green Ghoul"!Robespierre. At any rate, it's up there.

Hearing about this kind of thing really makes me want to write my own novel set during the Revolution, but I'm frankly don't think I have the skills, at least at this point, to do it justice. It's a pity, really, because someone should. But for now I guess I'll just stick to writing about the role of classical references in the period leading up to the fall of the monarchy. :/

Date: 2011-11-08 06:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
It's very true. Though I wish I had more time for reading about daily life during the Revolution instead of strictly intellectual/political history, since that's where you really get the kind of details that you need for a novel.

I'm in my last year of undergrad and writing a senior thesis. Next year I'm going to France for my master's and I'll probably expand the research I'm doing this semester. What are you working on?

Date: 2011-11-09 02:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
Oh, that's right, I ought to have remembered that you study mainly Victorian literature, since I already responded to your post on the subject. The portrayal of the Revolution in literature is definitely a fascinating subject. I did - actually, I should say "I'm doing", since I never finished it - a series on the representation of Éléonore Duplay in literature (and a few entries on Saint-Just as well, for the books he shows up in but where he's not a major character, to keep things short). I would have liked to do the same for Robespierre, but it's impossible to be exhaustive in the same way: I wouldn't have been able to include every place in a book that Robespierre appears, so then I would have had to justify which excerpts I chose and it would have ended up practically being a disseration by the time I was through.

Was Ann Radcliffe really sympathetic to the Revolution? If so, I might have to look into reading her (in my copious spare time).

I've heard of Zanoni, but I've never read it. I can't decide whether it sounds like it would be painful or (perhaps unintentionally) entertaining to read, but I'm sure it would say a good deal about Victorian sensibilities. Mixing the French Revolution and the occult seems to have become a trend recently too, though. [livejournal.com profile] maelicia found a French comic including Robespierre and succubi, or something like that. There's also a webcomic and, apparently a YA novel about vampires and the Revolution (I saw the latter in a bookstore last summer, but I found the concept so unappealing I'm afraid I didn't take a closer look).

I think part of Camille Desmoulins's appeal for the Victorians, aside from this idea of his having had a "perfect" family life destroyed by the Revolution, is that it's very easy for people who don't like the Revolution to recuperate him by ignoring his entire pre-Vieux Cordelier career. According to the preferred reading, Camille and Lucile's executions just prove what a heartless monster Robespierre supposedly was, which, if that's what you want to believe, can make Camille attractive to you without anything else. Add in the love story and the orphaned child and you can hardly go wrong. Well, as long as you don't actually read Les Révolutions de France et de Brabant, for example. Ironically, the romantic Camille of the Victorians is precisely the one I don't care for. I have much more sympathy for the author of the Révolutions de France et de Brabant (I mention that journal in particular because I've read a lot of it for my research).

Date: 2011-11-09 05:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
I've read your essais you published here about Eléonore in littérature and I find them fascinating. I wish you'll write more about this issue. What literature does to historical subjects is sometimes amazing.Movies and plays are very similar to literature in it. The same person could be portrayed in very different ways! And yet, it's the very same person. :D A monster or an angel...That depends on which political ideas you'll have. Interesting!

I've real "Zanoni" and it's delirious. Jacobins are all mosnters there. But REAL monsters. Hanriot is portrayed as an OLD, FAT - yes, old and fat despite the fact he was young and VERY thin - untidy drunkard who would cut people intentionally with his sword in the streets. Robspierre -yes, you see this coming- is very similar to a cat , was "cadaverous" and always had his oranges at hand...But a Marquise was close to him rady to peel them off and offer the fruit segment one by one to him...Almost a "Neron" type in "Quo Vadis?". He is the essense of evil.Of ccourse if you wants a big laugh, you must read it.

I actually like Camille's love for his wife...but I can sepparate it of his work in political arena. I'm intersted in his personal drama, as I'm interested in Hanriot's private life, since I'm interested in them for the men they were...however, I can't appprove the Camille of the last times and all good husband he was , he was not acting as a good patriot. Of course, he was not the candid dove that some historians wanted to show us he was. I think he must be more similar to the Camille of "A Place of Greater Safety" than to the angel you could see in Victorian tales or recent TV movies as "The French Revolution", by Enrico-Heffron. He was far of being an innocent little guy.

Date: 2011-11-10 06:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
I probably will write more about representations of various figures in literature at some point when I'm not so busy. It's definitely a subject of great interest to me.

"Zanoni" sounds rather predictable, but looked at from the right angle I can see how it would be funny. I've never understood why people think they're insulting Robespierre by claiming that he was catlike though. I like cats!

It's not so much Camille's relationship with Lucile that I object to as the way that he's turned into some kind of sainted martyr to freedom of the press, when really all people want is one more excuse to depict Robespierre as evil. It's the same kind of hypocrisy that makes counterrevolutionaries claim they object to the violence of the Revolution when they really object to popular participation in government. But it's harder to sell people on the latter objection.

Date: 2011-11-13 05:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
Well, I like cats too...But the historians who compared Robespierre to a cat, didn't seems to like cats so awfully much. The way in which they said he was similar to one of those animals is ver disdainful. People who didn't like cats (not my case, since I LOVE them) claims they are traitors and couldn't be faithful to their owner (which is false...One of my cats was 1000 times more faithful than any of the dogs I had). Some of these historians, depicts Robespierre's behavior toward his ennemies as a cat playing with the innocent mouse he's certain to kill. So, it's not Robespierre's supposed similarity to cats that bothers me, but the negative intention that underlines over the whole thing. They didn't like cats-They didn't like Robespierre. So, they identifies Robespierre with cats.

Of course, the problem with Lucile and Camille's love is not their true relationship , but the use the historians made of it to turn Camille into a Saint...

Date: 2011-11-13 08:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
I figured that they probably did not like cats if they viewed it as such an awful thing to be like one. I just find it ironic, given how much I like cats.

Date: 2011-11-09 02:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
It's awesome of you to offer advice about grad school, but since I'll be going to France, it's going to be a little bit different. For one thing, I haven't actually "applied" for the Master, because they don't do that. I can just enroll as soon as I prove that my BA is the equivalent of a French licence. I do have a faculty sponsor though, so I know I'll be at Nanterre.

As for my senior thesis, the brief version is that the traditional analysis (the one that goes from Volney to Constant to Marx and beyond) of classical references during the Revolution is that the Revolutionaries were simply trying to imitate Antiquity. This underpins Constant's dichotomy between the liberty of the Ancients (on whose side he groups the Revolutionaries) and the liberty of the Moderns. However, recent work on republicanism and natural rights philosophy both during the Revolution and in the centuries leading up to it, suggests that this dichotomy would have made no sense to the Revolutionaries or the political traditions they were drawing on and to cut a very long story short, their belief in a kind of negative liberty which Philip Pettit calls "liberty as non-domination" (which term has been adopted by Florence Gauthier, Yannick Bosc, et al.) means they fit into neither of Constant's categories.

Now, I, of course, having observed that the Revolutionaries seldom actually seem to attempt to imitate Antiquity in the way they are traditionally assumed to have done (in other words, you can't actually explain the Revolution by saying that Robespierre thought he was Cato and Bonaparte thought he was Caesar, despite the disturbingly large number of authors who seem to think you can), it occurred to me that if Constant was wrong about the whole "liberty of the Ancients vs. liberty of the Moderns" thing, it might be in part because he was basing it on the false premise that the Revolutionaries sought to imitate Antiquity, which then led me to the obvious question: Well, if they're not imitating Antiquity, what is the function of all the references to it? And then: Even if they're not strictly imitating Antiquity, might classical references be linked to the rise of republicanism, since the Res Publica is, after all a Roman idea? and all attendant questions. But of course, the link with republicanism is really just a subset of the larger question, designed so that I can have a topic small enough to cover in 40-60 pages.

Date: 2011-11-15 09:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ephaistion85.livejournal.com
Estelle, your research project sounds really interesting!
We should talk about it together sometimes, as I am tackling a similar question (which reception of Antiquity in the the French Revolution Rhetorics), but from the Classics perspective :)

Date: 2011-11-15 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
Thank you. I'd be happy to discuss if you'd like. It's interesting: it seems to me that most research that has been done on this topic has been done by classicists. I guess most historians don't feel qualified enough, but I think it is important to approach these kinds of questions from as many angles as possible.

Date: 2011-11-16 07:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ephaistion85.livejournal.com
It's amazing how the perception changes according to subject!
Amongst classicists, we always say the exact contrary: that traditional reception studies neglect the French Revolution because it is `too easy' (sic!).
For example Mossé's L'Antiquité dans la Révolution Française is a good book, but it is more an introduction for the general public, than a book for classicists/ancient historians, the same can be said for Canfora and alike.
By the way, send me a pm with your contacts, if you want so that we won't annoy the entire community ;).

Date: 2011-11-16 08:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] estellacat.livejournal.com
I don't mean to imply that there's been a lot written by classicists on the subject. There hasn't been much of anything written by anyone (which is part of the reason why it's a good research topic), but what is out there is largely the work of classicists. Mossé's book is for the general public, but there was a colloquium for the bicentennial on the topic under the direction of Raymond Chevallier (of which I have annoyingly been unable to find a copy) and then . And there have been a few articles here and there - including those by Pierre Vidal-Nacquet and Nicole Loraux and François Hartog, which were probably the most important sources for the seminar paper I wrote last year. I suppose the main person working on this question at the moment is probably Jacques Bouineau, who is neither a classicist nor a historian, but a jurist (though I get the impression reading his book that he's more comfortable with Antiquity than the French Revolution, for what it's worth). In the course of the 20th century I think there were two books written by historians treating this question. And of course, as with the classicists, there are a few articles.

But really, there's not much from anyone. I guess I just have the impression that it's mostly classicists writing about this because it seems like a lot of what I've read has been by them.

For some reason, LJ messages don't really work for me. But my contact info should be on my profile page.

Date: 2011-11-06 02:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gwynplainee.livejournal.com
It sounds a bit like Neville's The Eight -I hated that book, specially for the part in which Robespierre gave a slap to Charlotte Corday (¿Or It was the protagonist? I don't remember >.>)-. Mmmm, I don't know if I want to read it... If I read it, I know I'll avoid all the High School parts. :\

Date: 2011-11-07 02:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gwynplainee.livejournal.com
Let me imagine: A Tale of Two Cities + One of these High School series? Ugh >.

Date: 2011-11-07 04:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hanriotfran.livejournal.com
A slap to Charlotte Corday???? My, that's so idiotic...Poor Maxime. People never gets tired to make up all sort of stupid stories about him...:(

Date: 2011-11-07 02:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gwynplainee.livejournal.com
The whole books is idiotic >:( Is about a cursed chess set that Freemasons are looking for, and they made the whole Revolution just for find it. And David is friend of Talleyrand. Ugh.

Date: 2011-11-15 09:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ephaistion85.livejournal.com
I glanced at that novel a while ago in Amazon and discarded it (I generally can't stand young-adult fictions) and now I'm glad I did it.
I still can't believe how certain writers are not ashamed to use certain scheme (and don't let me started on the whole mental health issues) >.<.
As for the research part, I'm afraid to say that most of the writers/writers-to-be I know consider enough research looking at wikipedia and the rest is a waste of time (I just had a discussion about it on a literary blog this morning).

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