Modes of Address

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

I've got a few questions about the use of names and modes of address. Did people, in 18thc France, use their forenames socially (OK, there's Camille Desmoulins - but then he was 'special'- and even then, I've seen documents that hyphenate his name, maybe the typesetter thinking it was part of his surname)?

For example, in modern fiction and films, Robespierre is often called "Max' or 'Maxime' with friends, but I can't remember any bit of contemporary writing/memoir I've seen where he's called anything other than Robespierre, though I dimly remember a possibly facetious "Maximilien' I came across flipping through 'Revolutions de Paris'. So, is there any reference to him being called by or using his forename? (Maybe by his brother or sister? Camille in a letter?) There are also anecdotes that say he preferred 'Monsieur' and 'vous' to 'Citizen' and 'tu', but I don't know how reliable these are (one is from Barras' memoirs so presumably hostile): are there letters etc that back this story up?

Were forenames really only for use by parents to children and wives to husbands, and/or to please relatives at baptism, and/or to differentiate people from their relatives on documents? In Britain, at least, men only used surnames to each other in formal situations until recently: now if a newsreader were to say 'Brown' rather than 'Gordon Brown', it would seem hostile somehow, but in 1980 it would have been the other way around (and I suspect there are narky old retired colonels who think this is a dreadful bit of lefty hippy informality and a sign that society has gone to the dogs!) . Anyway, I was wondering...

Comments

[maelicia.livejournal.com]

I remember reading an author saying -- I think it was the author of a biography on Desmoulins, don't remember which -- that 'there are only two revolutionaries that we name by their first names: Camille and Maximilien'. The 'we' there standing for posterity, us, in the present times, obviously.

I think that they often played on the 'Maximilien' during the Revolution, using it in pamphlets, things like that, such as: Louvet's À Maximilien Robespierre et à ses royalistes; Olympe de Gouges' Pronostic sur Maximilien Robespierre, par un animal amphibie; Duperron's Vie secrette, politique et curieuse de M.I. Maximilien Robespierre; and Montjoye's Histoire de la conjuration de Maximilien Robespierre. I'm not so sure though because I still have to start reading through Thermidorian crap. But I would think that one of the reasons for this is that his brother is also in politics, so to differentiate the two, they add the 'Maximilien'. Maybe it's some rhetorical effect too, to add to his 'uniqueness' and then 'tyrantness', if you see what I mean... So maybe it's also because Robespierre is 'special'.

The only anecdote I know on Robespierre's favoured mode of address is that, apparently, on the night on Thermidor, he would have asked for a glass of water (yes, with a broken jaw) to a soldier and he replied with a 'thank you sir' -- in which all the marxist/social historians jump to say: Ooooh, Robespierre UNDERSTOOD, even as he was about to die, the nature of the times changing!!! (I love them.)

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Yes, I wondered how much talking you could do with a broken jaw! I think one comment I read on that was that it showed he was still 'formal',right to the end! I found an account of a meeting by Jean-Victor Colchen (quoted in David Jordan's The Revolutionary Career of Maximilien Robespierre, p186 in the hardback edition), where he tells of making a report to Robespierre, who addressed him as 'Monsieur' and didn't use 'tu' - and 'wore clothes from another age', too! So maybe, if that's true, the Thermidor story is true, too, even though it sounds unlikely that he was doing much talking then, and that he never adopted the revolutionary 'citizen' in normal conversation? It would fit with the whole powdered hair and culottes thing...

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

I think of Camille Desmoulins as being like one of those modern celebrities who is just known by their first name in magazines like 'Hello'!

[missweirdness.livejournal.com]

I do remember reading about that also...i don't know if i could of talked if my jaw was broken. I'd prolly be crying too much and hurting. OOOOOHHH..that could explain a lot maybe...why he never did change his clothing style.

[livviebway.livejournal.com]

"Max" and "Maxime" seem to be purely modern inventions to help a modern reader/viewer relate to him better.

A few summers ago I transcribed the diary of a seamstress living in the Ohio territory in 1818. Obviously not quite during the Revolution, but fairly close. Even in her diary she referred to her husband as "Mr. Tyler." I've also heard it explained taking the example of the hypothetical Monsieur Maximilien Dupont that everyone would call him Monsieur Dupont in public, his close friends would refer to him as Dupont in private conversation, his wife would refer to him as Maximilien in private conversation but Monsieur Dupont in any context that wasn't just between them or very intimate friends, and his mistress might call him Maximilien or Maxime.

Regarding that non-hypothetical Maximilien, the closest thing I've seen to someone addressing him intimately is Camille's response to his letter to the Revolutions of France and Brabant where he addresses him "My dear Robespierre," but of course that is also a public forum.

Camille does seem to have been a special case. You have many instances of people referring to him in public as plain "Camille," including people he doesn't know particularly well. Also, if you read his correspondence, people are very quick to address him as Camille. I would chalk that up to his personality as well. At the very least it seems to be a sign of affectionate levity and a little condescending given the cultural context...

[estellacat.livejournal.com]

I think first names - for men, anyway, women often needing to be identified by first name for clarity - were generally reserved for family and possibly close friends, depending on the circumstances. But maelicia is also perfectly correct to point out that calling an adversary by his first name was used to add condescension to contempt. In that sense, it works the same way as the (non-Revolutionary) tutoiement; you would use "tu" to speak to your family and close friends, but also if you're insulting someone. Of course, it's not an exact analogy, and French, like English, is becoming more informal. For the 18th century, if there's any doubt, it's safer to assume that a man would be called by his last name.

As a side note though, concerning Robespierre in particular, the Duplays were supposed to have called him Maxime. In his letters, he generally addresses good friends as "mon ami" or "mon cher ami" (though he once addresses Duplay with the Jacobin "frère et ami"); and "monsieur" if he doesn't know the man he's addressing well. His brother and sister address him as "cher frère."

It does not seem that it was done generally for people to address their correspondants directly by name, first or last. In fact, the only occurance of that I've been able to find is in a letter from Robespierre to Desmoulins, in which he addresses him both as "Monsieur Camille Desmoulins" and as "Camille." But as you note, Desmoulins is the exception.

[citoyennemiyuki.livejournal.com]

Good theme again. I always found this theme so interesting. Everybody called Camille as "Camille" I don't know why they used his first name. Robespierrre mentoited him as "Camille" too in his memories (I know, because I read now)

I read in other book Robespierre didn't like "tu" and "citoyen" therefore he tried to avoid "tu" in speaking. I think he used "vous".....I read also his friends called him only "Maximilien"....I heard "Maxime" only in films. How did Charlotte call him in her memories? and he hated "Max", that's my opinion...

[citoyennemiyuki.livejournal.com]

now, I asked how called Charlotte Maximilien....what does "cher frére" mean?
I read "tu" were fashionable in revolution, but Maximelien hated it....(I'm sure of this now)
I think most of people called him as "Citoyen Robespierre"

[estellacat.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sorry. It means "dear brother." In her memoirs, because she's addressing the public, Charlotte calls Maximilien "my older brother" or "Robespierre the elder."

It's true that Robespierre didn't use "tu" in his letters, but they tend to fall into two categories: those that were written before tutoiement became common, and those where he was addressing more than one person. Beyond that, all we have is hearsay about his modes of address--which may well be true, but we have no way of knowing that.

In general though, you're right, Robespierre was definitely known largely as "Citoyen Robespierre," at least under the Republic.

[citoyennemiyuki.livejournal.com]

Actually, I started to learn french now, I know some addresses and sentences....but I didn't know thisXD thank you^^
Robespierre was too old-fashioned, therefore he couldn't change or he didn't want....
Of course in the 21th century we call him "Maxime" or "Max" (I prefer "Maximilien"), because the nicknames are popular today...therefore some directors put his nicknames into their films....XD

[estellacat.livejournal.com]

You're welcome.

Now see, here you're confusing what some historians assert and what we can actually know from direct evidence. Without a reliable primary source account, or preferably several, we have no way of knowing whether he continued to address people formally, and still less what his motives for doing so might have been.
According to some secondary sources the Duplays did call Robespierre Maxime, but again, one has to decide for oneself how believable those secondary sources are. "Max," on the other hand is certainly a nickname he has been given recently.

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

The 'Camille' thing is fascinating:I once wrote an essay (English lit degree) on the medieval notion of the 'fool's licence' and something of it applies here, I think (as in Robespierre's "...Camille, if you were not Camille, the amount of indulgence shown to you would be unthinkable"). For example, in 'King Lear', the Fool and Cordelia were played by the same (male) actor, but 'sane' Cordelia is banished for similar comments to those made without punishment by the Fool - similarly, Hamlet feigns madness which allows him to say the otherwise unsayable. In the English Civil War/Revolution period, there seems to have been something of that, too, with pamphleteers escaping punishment by being dismissed as simply 'mad'. There were calls for Desmoulins and Marat to be locked up as mad at various times (maybe Camille came across as 'manic' - he was certainly outstandingly lively and doesn't seem to have had much sense of caution). Ultimately, though, it's a double-edged sword - Camille could be dismissed as 'a spoiled child' at a time when he was desperate to be taken in dead seriousness.

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

I suppose it would make perfect sense if the Duplays did call him 'Maxime', where he's in effect an adopted family member.

I suppose there's no way of ever knowing what he and Saint-Just called each other!

[estellacat.livejournal.com]

That's my view too; there's really no particular reason to question that.

It depends largely on how close you think they were. But that's all guesswork anyway.

[citoyennemiyuki.livejournal.com]

yes,I confuse everything ^^; because of my poor english and my non-revolutionary knowledge (second is a joke, I have... but I have to read in this theme more)...I don't know point of view of historians. Honestly. But I will search more informations about it....
I didn't read any sources about Duplays....I will.

[missweirdness.livejournal.com]

That all confuses me. @_@ Honestly i think Robespierre's nicknames were highly modern in a sense. I totally agree with a lot of you about that. Glad he was in power then, or else he could of gotten in trouble...with being all formal and stuff.

Camille must of been special to be the expection...XD

[estellacat.livejournal.com]

It's okay--it's just important to be able to back up your assertions when it comes to history.

[livviebway.livejournal.com]

Hey I know this thread is way old but now I can officially confirm (see my new post) that Camille addressed Robespierre as tu before it became obligatory to do so. In his response to Robespierre's correction letter from 1790 or 91, Camille uses tu. He also refers to him as "my dear Robespierre." Robespierre addresses Camille as vous though, although he intended his letter to be printed.

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Thanks for remembering it! That's interesting - did Camile 'tu' all his friends/acquaintances before it became de rigeur - he seems like the sort who would?
(Btw I love the way Camille has his - well, that's the sort of thing you say to me in private, so my article was sort-of-right - response to that Revs de France piece: god, the reckless idiot!Public/private boundaries didn't seem to exist for him....)