Monthly Discussion Point: Camille Desmoulins

[trf-chan.livejournal.com]

This month's discussion point is Camille Desmoulins.

Discuss any and all aspects of his life, how important and influential he was in the course of the Revolution, why he brings so many fangirls to the yard today, how jealous he obviously was of Saint-Just, etc. etc.

Because People!Discussion points seem to actually yield up more...discussion. O.o;

Also, feel free to use the comments to suggest other monthly topics you'd like to see coming to an LJ community near you. I expect 'Why Our Mod is Always a Week Late Putting up Monthly Discussion Points' to be rather popular, personally. D:

Comments

[estellacat.livejournal.com]

I'm actually starting to be pretty sick of Camille, if only because everyone seems to like him for no particularly good reason that I can discern. (Mostly, it seems to me, because they saw him in some way "cutely" displayed in a novel or film or play.)

I don't have anything against him in particular, it's just that I think he's given far too much play in popular culture and on the internet. Because in the grand scheme of things, he wasn't that important--there are plenty of people who played more prominent roles in the Revolution that nobody has heard of, after all.

...No, actually, I take that back: there are some things I don't like about him personally, in particular the fact that he made himself into Danton's mouthpiece and he seems to have been as corrupt as Danton as well. But really, it's mostly just all his undeserved popularity that gets me.

And no, Robespierre did not "abandon" him, and Saint-Just did not "kill" him.

But I'll stop rambling now, in hopes of regaining some coherency at some future point.

[pedrolino.livejournal.com]

I'll confess to being one of the annoying ones who liked Desmoulins first based on his characterization in a novel, but I have since tried to find more information on him. I've also found it to be really quite hard. As fangirled as he may be in popular culture and on the internet, in most books I've read, he's definitely given a backseat in the action of the revolution (which I'm not saying he doesn't deserve. I honestly don't feel qualified to say).

[loremaula.livejournal.com]

I don't know very much about Camille's life. I'm fascinated by Maximilien and Louis-Antoine and haven't analyzed his hitorical figure deeply enough...
You probably know that he studied in the same Louis le Grand college as Robespierre did, and where he met teenager Maximilien. They became good friends during most of their lifes. He wasn't a good lawyer and lived poorly before Revolution. He had some diction difficulties and probably wasn't a very good orator, but a great journalist. He tirelessly spread the most important revolutionary ideas on papers. His golden moment was his call to people to go to Royal Palace to protest, after Necker's destitution.
He didn't shine with his own light, but was remarkable enough to become rather popular and climb gradually up some positions to be finally situated amogst the most important revolutionaries. He supported fervently his ideas, that were rather similar of these of Jacobins during some time.
But later, he supported Danton, and so, he started to take another path, different from the one that Robespierre and his adepts took. That was the begin of his end. His friendship with L'Incorruptible broke and his destiny was the same as Danton's.

I don't hate nor love Camille. He just doesn't passionate me. But can understand why he is so loved by a lot of people. We can see him as a family man, married to a beautiful and clever Lucille and father of a lovely little boy. he wasn't a "star", but was deeply implicated in Revolution. Some people find cute his diction problems and well, you know that Danton is most people's fav revolutionary because of his tremendous personality and because he wanted to stop Terror when it began to get out of hand. Camille was so bonded to Danton that if you like Danton and his ideas, probably you like Camille, too.

Sorry for my bad English. If you don't agree with me in some points, please, comment.

[emma1794.livejournal.com]

I just have to say 'LOL' to your icon... ^__^

[loremaula.livejournal.com]

Well... Maxime used to wear tinted glasses, so I gave him modern ones.
I wonder if he would like them. XD

[emma1794.livejournal.com]

This is true... I'm sure he would like them. He looks rather dapper. XD

[lucile24.livejournal.com]

I' m a fan, a Camille's lover. I don't definitely think that his work and life was exempt from criticism, he had faults, of course but he was a journalist, a great journalist( in my opinion the best, with Fréron, in French Revolution)that died for liberty. He was a naive man, naive yes not a corrupt like Danton. Danton exploited Camille's talent, exploited and deceived friendship and defaimed Camille in front of Robespierre( reading Danton's speech).
For Camilles' ideas, heart, fragility and love I admire him forever.

[loremaula.livejournal.com]

Thank you. It's an interesting point of view.

[lucile24.livejournal.com]

thank you very much:-)

[lucile24.livejournal.com]

p.s excuse me for my bad english but I' m italian..

[kurotoshi.livejournal.com]

On Camille, well, the little I know, he was in the right direction at first but then his associating with Danton was really his biggest mistake. Heck, even Marat told him he was being stupid but did he listen? Noooooooo-

(BTW, sorry about the previous topic, school is eating me alive, I'll do a post about the Sans-Culotte when I get the chance ^^;)

[emma1794.livejournal.com]

I don't really know much about Camille, I just know that he practically signed his own death warrant when he called for extreme clemency... I mean, even Robespierre was for moderate clemency (he called for a Committee of Justice) but total clemency in the time of the Terror was never going to be popular. I think the main image I have of Camille (bad lawyer, eager to make connections, irritant to most people) stems from Hilary Mantel's A Place of Greater Safety.

[misatheredpanda.livejournal.com]

I'm not very good at the whole, um, discussion part of discussions, so sorry in advance. Although maybe if I stopped apologizing every time I tried to say something serious, it would work better. Anyway so! I'm beginning to feel very strange about all of this. I myself am a huge admirer, but I don't understand the whole 'fangirling' thing? I kind of assumed when I began studying him that I would be the only one who cared. And of course, very few really do, but a large slice of them seem to be attached to this odd romanticized image of him. I think I can see where it comes from - his is a tragic story (although I'd have trouble calling it any 'more' tragic than that of anyone else who died), and his and Lucile's letters and such (mind you that my French is awful and I'm not as well-versed in the original documents as I'd like to be) could have come from a novel. Alright, that was their personal style; and they were human beings and I find it much more interesting to ponder the drive behind all of that than to take it at face value and then expand it a few times over- and now I'm veering off-topic.

I guess it comes down to the same problem every other figure in the Revolution faces: he's constantly being squeezed into a few stereotypes. They may tend to be more flattering than those applied to, say, Robespierre (like, I hear some people don't like him??) but they're just as disgusting. Worse? I'd say it's better to degrade someone's image because you hate them - at least then it can be taken as deliberate slander - than because you admire them. If you're going to laud someone who never existed, there are much more accessible choices; but I suppose one needs the tangibility of a real name and face to support what they want to believe. But I don't suppose I'm just talking about Camille anymore.

[loremaula.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. One tends to forget that historical figures were human, and as human beings, their personalities were far more rich, complicated and plenty of nuances than these of fictitious characters... Besides, we will never be able to fully understand them: the time in which they lived had little to do with our era, their reality, was too much different from the one we, people from their future, have now, sitting confortably in front of our screens, like Gods who know the consequences of what they did. They lived very long ago, and an idealized or simplified image of them is what we get.
Only people who study these characters deeply, comparing several biographies by historians from different political ideas, people who read texts written by these historical characters or by people who knew them can notice how easily we use to simplify, to judge them.
And even after deepen, people can't avoid to give a personal vision of these characters, depending of their sympathies with them or with what they did...
So, we only can share our particular vision of them.

Why don't you share with us your vision of "human" Camille? For instance, not a "fangirl" one?

[trf-chan.livejournal.com]

Heh, it's probably better that you don't understand it. XD And I hope you didn't take the post to mean that I thought everyone who liked Camille was a 'fangirl' or anything. I know that's definitely not the case, especially not with you. So. Yeah. :D;

Anyway, I think you make a really good point with your second paragraph. Have you noticed how often that seems to happen in American History? -_-

[misatheredpanda.livejournal.com]

Oh, no, I didn't think you meant that - I just started thinking on it and got carried away, I guess. And, um, it is good to know that you don't get that impression from me. :D;;

Thank you. Er, yes. It's been especially great with my American History teacher. (This is her reading from the Constitution: "Wait, what does that mean? This, like, doesn't even sound like English..." and "I think what they meant to say was-" oh, God, she's making an amendment.) I expect it's mostly bad because we're Americans, too. It gets a little ridiculous to watch.

[jonahmama.livejournal.com]

I think there are probably three major aspects of Camille's life and career that make him an interesting figure of the Revolution:
1. While perhaps not as significant a contribution in practical terms as it was symbolically, his speech at the Palais Royal calling the people to arms was acknowledged during his lifetime as the official starting point of the Revolution, and even his contemporaries felt that he had attained a special symbolic status with this one action which they considered heroic. Regardless of what he did or did not do afterwards, his role in July 14th, still the celebrated "birthday" of the French Republic (despite arguably more decisive dates from later in the Revolution), was then and is still considered worthy of recognition.
2. Camille was a superbly eloquent writer who not only wrote high quality, he also wrote in great quantity. People are and have always been attracted to eloquence; having a way with words is just sexy. Whether you love or hate journalists in general, from a historical perspective we get much of our information about the Revolution from writings from that era, and Camille embodies a fascinating mix of actor and chronicler of the same drama. Oddly, he seemed to have seen himself as somehow not really a part of the Convention, as much as a critic of it, not responsible for its actions. His perspective gives valuable insight into several key moments of the Revolution, and it is difficult to study the period without examining the author of these documents.
3. Camille was in the unique position of developing friendships or associations with virtually every key figure in the Revolution from its earliest days to its latest ones. Perhaps unlike any other person, his range of close acquaintances encompassed not only Danton and Robespierre, but also Mirabeau, Orleans, Brissot, Petion, Saint-Just, Marat, Freron, and countless others. He serves as a conduit of sorts -- a person whose papers and writings reference and inform on a very wide variety of other individuals. Whether your focus is on 1789 or 1799, Camille's life provides an entry point into the lives, thoughts and relationships of dozens of other Revolutionaries, including some whose contributions well outlasted Camille himself. Perhaps because of this variety of personal associations, it is also easy to see through Camille's eyes the losses of the Revoltuion. He represents stages of regret - his reaction at the Girondins' trial, his rejection of the Terror, and then later, after Thermidor, the association of the death of Camille and his "intéressante Lucile" as some sort of catalyst of Thermidorian grief.

[misatheredpanda.livejournal.com]

having a way with words is just sexy.
I probably shouldn't have grinned like I did when I read that, but it's so, well, true.

Anyway, all three points are good ones. I'm especially interested in #3, which is something that's always fascinated me about Camille, but which I haven't been able to explain as well as you have. He's never considered a central character, yet he's one of the few figures really integral to every stage of the Revolution. I do see a certain value in that, and it surprises me that a few more people haven't picked up on it...

I get excited over this.

[loremaula.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much por analyzing Camille's influence in Revolution in such a clear and precise way. You've broaded my vision of him.

[livviebway.livejournal.com]

Hi everyone, this is my first post and the subject seemed to be a fitting one to ask a couple of Camille-related sources questions about. I was very interested in the French Revolution a few years ago, then it kind of faded off the radar, then I was working in a museum this summer that revived my love of history and I've been starting over, reading some of the introduction books because I'm embarrassed to say I'd forgotten some of the events of 1790-1791.

That said, the little personal tidbits are always fun and they're what I remember best. I'm a biography-whore, really. I'm basically looking for someone to tell me that yes, they know these anecdotes too, and even better if they can point out a book that cites them. The first is that "He carries his head like the Holy Sacrament"/"I'll make him carry his like Saint-Denis" exchange between Camille and Saint-Just. The second relates to Camille's portrayal in a lot of modern revolutionary fiction as bisexual. Obviously that's mostly up to authorial interpretation, but I seem to recall something about Robespierre writing a note in one of his notebooks like "Danton made reference to Camille's secret vice." However, I have NO idea where I read that or if I'm making it up or what. Somehow, I feel it's not in the Claretie biography.

Also, I'm in the process of translating Lucile's diary, which is very interesting and it's nice to get a sense of her on her own, rather than as a footnote to Camille.

[morgan-wang.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've heard both anecdotes several times from different sources. The first though, some historians think is too clever to actully be true. But Camille was pretty clever.

[livviebway.livejournal.com]

We can give him credit for it! ;-)

Do you have a citation for the second one, perhaps? Like, do you remember which book you read it in? Because while I know I've read it, it's starting to annoy me that I cannot remember where. A friend of mine suggested Thompson's bio of Robespierre, but she was just guessing.

[morgan-wang.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I looked, but I couldn't find it. (Though I had to return a bunch of books I read about the rev to the library a few weeks back, so it might be in their.) Its very anoying to think you've read somthing, but can't remember where.

[livviebway.livejournal.com]

Sorry this is so old, but I just found the reference to Camille's "secret vice." It's in J.M. Thompson's bio of Robespierre.

A reply to an old posting (better late than never, I suppose.)

[ecritoire89.livejournal.com]

Hello.

I just happened upon your posting regarding Camille Desmoulins. If you haven't located sources to help answer some of your questions, perhaps I can help. I'm a stress-stammering college teacher, which is, at least, more fun than being a stress-stammering attorney. In other words, I do have my credentials, for what they're worth, even if I'm known as "that crazy professor with the long hair."

As for Antoine Saint-Just's reply to Camille's accusation that SJ carried his head "like the blessed sacrament," Saint-Just's alleged response of "I'll make him carry his head like a Saint Denis" might need to be questioned. I've found French sources that attribute to Saint-just something more akin to "I'll make [Camille] carry his head in a different manner altogether." Same implication, yes--but the phrasing is a bit less ominous.

As for Camille's contested sexuality, I'll only say that he never denied anything. Apparently, Danton really did mention something about Camille's "secret and shameful habit" to Robespierre. I have a number of theories on that situation.

To find sources, go to Google Book Search. Key in Camille Desmoulins. You should find "digitized" texts of Jules Claretie's bio on Camille and Lucile. There's also an 1825 print that contains "Le Vieux Cordelier," along with a number of "Oeuvres de Camille Desmoulins." You can actually print these sources free of charge(except for the hih cost of ink ad paper!). Note: Claretie will not discuss sexuality. Such things were unmentionable in the 1870s.

Good luck in your translation of Lucile's memoirs. Never forget to doubt that she wrote down everything she witnessed.

A.S. Long

Re: A reply to an old posting (better late than never, I suppose.)

[livviebway.livejournal.com]

Since posting this, I have answered several of my questions. Camille's questionable sexuality quote comes from Robespierre's notes regarding Danton, where he writes that Danton made reference to Camille's "private and shameful vice." It's quoted in full in Thompson's biography.

According to the intro, I believe, of Matton's Oeuvres Completes de Camille Desmoulins, Camille's witticism about Saint-Just was in a letter to Arthur Dillon, though it said nothing about Saint-Just's response.

One more thing . . .

[ecritoire89.livejournal.com]

If you're looking for information and photos of Guise in Picardy (where Camille was born), Google in "Guise." Lots of the photos on this French site are from Claretie's old collection.

Hilary Mantel has a friend who's been to Guise (neither of us has). Apparently, it's still a sleepy little town with a very nice, new middle school named after Camille. However, we suspect that Claretie's collection of Camille and Lucile's belongings may have been destroyed in one world war or the other.

The French site on Guise has a b/w of Camille as a teenager (and he's wearing an earring). To see the color version of this, Google in "Saint Just net." Look under portraits. I think there's still a color version of Camille's teen portrait posted there. Someone thought, because of the earring, of course, that the painting is Saint Just. Obviously, it's Camille. All you have to do is look at it to tell. Camille had to learn that lesson many of us do in our youth: It's really hard to cut your own bangs!

A.S. Long