Concombre, Septidi, 7 Messidor, An CCXIV

[cachecache.livejournal.com]

Group discussion time!

So...we all know that sometime between 9 Thermidor and 10 Thermidor, Robespierre obtained a not-so-pleasant bullet wound to his jaw. Some people said he tried (and obviously failed) to commit suicide before he could be guillotined while others said he was shot by someone (either a guard, someone who tried to save him but missed really horrible, or just someone who wasn't a big Robesy fan). Which account do you believe?

Something else I've heard is that right before the blade came down on his head, the executioner reached down and ripped of Robespierre's bandage, making so that his last few seconds on earth were spent screaming in pain. That wasn't very nice.

Comments

[estellacat.livejournal.com]

...It's really difficult to know what to think about this, because neither of the given situations seem particularly likely.

The account of the guard who claimed to have shot him, Merda, is suspect considering the times and that the account doesn't quite match up with the angle of the wound.

On the other hand, it's unlikely that it was an attempted suicide because it seems uncharacteristic for one thing, but mostly because he was right-handed and the would was on the left side of his face.
...Then again, the inaccuracy could have been a result of using his left hand, which would be less precise...

And know, it wasn't very nice, but considering the violence with which all the Robespierristes were treated that day, it's hardly surprising.

[trf-chan.livejournal.com]

As Estellacat said, it's hard to know since both situations seem unlikely. But I've always thought that it's slightly more likely that he did it himself. If they wanted to deliver him to the guillotine, why would someone inflict a possibly life-threatening wound on him? Of course, there's always the possibility that Merda just got excited and wasn't thinking.

However, considering the circumstances, I couldn't blame anyone for attempted suicide, whether or not it's something they would've done in any other situation. After all, Le Bas killed himself and Augustin jumped out a window. Incidentally, let's assume for a second that it was attempted suicide. Do you think it was after or before that that the hysterics started on everyone else's part? It's easy to see it all going to hell after, but if it was before, that could've been yet another reason why he tried to off himself. If one of your friends just killed himself in front of you and your little brother jumped out a window (in addition to what was already going on!), how would you feel? Hopefully that made sense.

But like I've said, I'm a bit of a n00b, so maybe my opinion will change when I come upon more detailed accounts/analysises of that night. XD;

I've heard about that, too. And those people thought they were better and less cruel than everyone they were putting to death that day? >< Nice way to show it.

[jonahmama.livejournal.com]

From the research I have done, the guard shooting Robespierre is the more likely of the two scenarios. Actually what is most likely is that a number of guards, expecting armed resistance, stormed into the main hall of the Hotel de Ville guns blazing (as trigger-happy self-important policemen have a tendency to do). Most likely several rounds were fired at random, and one of them happened to hit Robespierre. Merda was probably just taking credit for something he or another guard might have done basically accidentally. The suicide story is suspect in part because it serves conveniently to mar Robespierre's reputation, which is precisely what subsequent historians wanted to do. He had never handled a weapon in his entire life, would not have carried one on his person, and it is highly unlikely that he was prepared to use one on himself or anyone else. The angle and nature of the wound also suggest a longer range, since a shot at close range (self-inflicted) would have likely penetrated through bone and either lodged in the skull or exited through the back of the head/neck. The bullet lodged in Robespierre's jaw, in a place shallow enough to be later extracted by a surgeon (without the benefit of anesthetic), along with several teeth. The only piece of evidence lending credence to the suicide theory is that two small (personal) guns were found beside LeBas, both his, and reportedly Robespierre had been sitting beside LeBas, who may have handed him one of the guns before using the other one to shoot himself. Since people in such situations react entirely instinctively (having only seconds to act), if indeed Robespierre picked up the gun and decided to use it on himself, how likely do you think it would be that he would be signing his name on a decree with his right hand (his signature is unfinished and smeared due to the scuffle) while shooting himself with his left?

Incidentally, I believe Augustin didn't try to off himself by jumping out the window - he was trying to escape. The design of the building might have made jumping down in stages possible (in a move right out of an action movie), however it was raining that night and everything was quite slick, so he slipped, and fell to his death.

And finally, the executioner was actually trying to do Robespierre a favor by ripping off his bandages, as difficult as that might be to believe. The wound was bandaged several times around with gauze, a fairly sticky and resistant material, and the blade was known to get caught on things like that (hence the fact that they took off people's cravats, pulled back shirts and even cut their hair). Supposedly the executioner was heard saying that if the bandage were left on, it would take several hits of the blade to execute Robespierre. As much as I'd take that piece with a huge helping of salt, I'm inclined to believe that the executioner simply wanted to get this execution over with as quickly and easily as possible.

Sorry for the long-winded answer... these little details are sometimes the most interesting. Most of the time I find the most prosaic, relatable scenario is the correct one.

[trf-chan.livejournal.com]

Ah...totally blows me out of the water. :P Yeah, I think what you've laid out here is much more believable. Thanks!

[kurotoshi.livejournal.com]

Holy fuck! (pardon the language) but that was actually a bit what I was thinking, but the executioner thing, wow, you have obviously done your homework! That is quite amazing, I'm highly impressed! You are really well informed!

[kurotoshi.livejournal.com]

and don't apologise for the long winded answer, it's the details that make the explanation more possible!

[daughtermestizo.livejournal.com]

I say he was shot by someone, and that someone was NOT Merda. In all honesty, I'm guessing Saint-Just.

And no, it really wasn't very nice. Do you know what happened to Couthon when they guillotined him? Or rather, just before?

D-M

[jonahmama.livejournal.com]

Well, I think if he was shot by someone OTHER than one of the guards, that would almost certainly had to have been Le Bas before he committed suicide. But that would mean they had it prearranged, which I highly doubt. Maybe I could see Robespierre committing suicide as a spur-of-the moment decision (maybe), but with forethought? This man who said time and again that he would be glad to die for the Republic? That he *looked forward* to being publicly executed? As for Saint-Just, he was not armed. Of all those arrested in the Convention, only Le Bas was able to go home before going to the Hotel de Ville, and grab weapons. This is actually well documented.

As for Couthon - also well-documented. He tried to "escape" by getting out of his wheelchair and going down the stairs in the commotion. Unfortunately he lost his balance, fell down several flights of stairs, and had a big gash in his forehead (probably also a fractured skull). It was bandaged prior to his execution. As I recall, (keep in mind, I don't have research actually in front of me as I type this :) ) he also experienced great pain when he was taken out of his wheelchair and carried up to the scaffold and made to lie down straight. I don't recall exactly which debilitating disease he had, though I seem to remember MS? Of course at the time they would not have had an exact diagnosis.

[daughtermestizo.livejournal.com]

Saint-Just was armed. He had a knife; they asked him to hand it over when they arrested him.

I believe Couthon had meningitis.

[jonahmama.livejournal.com]

I didn't remember the knife, though that sounds very plausible. But would probably not work too well to inflict a bullet would. :) Actually I am curious, why do you believe that such a devoted colleague (and perhaps more than a friend) might have done such a thing - so clearly against what Robespierre would have wanted? And then, when he failed to kill Robespierre, not shown any sign of remorse or sadness, just stood there impassive? I guess it's possible he could have gotten his hands on the gun, but why committ this horrible act against someone he knew well and loved?

And I am sure you are absolutely right about the meningitis. I had it confused with MS (they both start with M and are debilitating neurological conditions?). ;)

[daughtermestizo.livejournal.com]

Well, the other two stories are unlikely, but I suspect Maxime was shot at close-range. Perhaps it was not pre-arranged before that night. Perhaps, despairing, they had planned some sort of...murder-suicide? In any case, if ANYONE close-by shot Maxime by any form of his own will, it would have to be someone like Saint-Just. I doubt Maxime would trust anyone else like that. And Saint-Just DID cry (or at least get teary-eyed) over Maxime later.

Perhaps it's my romantic imagination talking. >_>

[jonahmama.livejournal.com]

Gave this even a bit more thought. Unfortunately in your scenario, Saint-Just, who has been hunting and soldiering since his youth, who is very, very comfortable with guns, who has led armies in battle riding in the front lines, misses his best friend's head at point-blank range. For some unknown reason, he doesn't aim for the heart or the temple (as would anyone in their right mind if they were trying to kill someone), but instead fires into Robespierre's jaw by mistake. I guess if we are looking for the absolute worst marksman in the room, we'd probably have to default back to Maxime trying to committ suicide and failing. Or, there is always the theory of the just-barely-trained guardsmen seeing someone lift a gun, and just randomly firing in that direction - and hitting Robespierre from a few feet away by mistake. I give up, you decide... :)

[daughtermestizo.livejournal.com]

No, no, I imagine something shocked him at the last moment. In several accounts (at least that I've read) it says Maxime was shot just as soldiers burst into the room. Factoring that in, it's possibly Saint-Just's hand slipped. Or failing that, that Maxime moved. The second is more likely, I think. Saint-Just was probably aiming for the temple.

[jonahmama.livejournal.com]

This whole "Who shot MMIR?" was the hot topic of discussion at my July 4th dinner party - fun, fun! I have some ties to the show "CSI", and if ever I am able, I want to get some tests conducted to try to recreate the crime scene, test fire the type of gun used with various loads, etc. There is some hard evidence - the paper Robespierre was signing is in the Musee Carnavalet (if memory serves), as is the gun he supposedly used. At the very least, we should be able to test whether or not that type of gun fired at close range could cause that type of wound. Also, my forensic expert friends said the blood on the document could at least be typed (though it's probably too late for a positive DNA match), to see if it is Robespierre's blood (it has been claimed that some blood was spilled on the document much later to make it appear as if Robespierre was signing it when he was shot). I am not entirely sure what could be used for comparison, though I thought there were some personal items at the Carnavalet which may yield a hair follicle or an epithelial. (Not sure how the City of Paris would feel about forensic tests being conducted on 200-year old exhibits - haha!) Finally, forensic expert friends say if indeed Robespierre shot himself, there would have been extensive powder burns on his hands, face and neck. I have looked through some (not all) of my dozen or so Robespierre biographies, and have yet to find one single reference to burn marks. You'd think if he had extensive burns, someone would have noted that.

And you may think *I* am nuts for getting so into this, but to my astonishment it occupied my not-at-all into French Rev friends for a considerable part of the evening! Talk about a Cold Case...!

[daughtermestizo.livejournal.com]

Oooooooooooooooooooooh, that all sounds like fun!