JOYEUX ANNIVERSAIRE, ANTOINE ! Some arts and one question

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Today is the 241th anniversary since Antoine Saint-Just's birth. All the best to my most beloved Citoyen :x !
It's a perfect day to dedicate to him some drawings. I made them with traditional items (pencils, ink, felter-pens) so they are full of mistakes. But I am lazy and I don't have the suppport of an appropriate pc software, so I leave them just as they are. Here the portraits:

Louis Antoine Saint-Just after me + Prudhon

This is my favourite Antoine's portrait ever.
I am sorry because the sentence at the bottom is written badly. But I decided to leave it as it was. Too lazy to change it. 





Louis Antoine Saint-Just after me & Greuze 1

My second favourite Antoine's portrait ever.
Someone say it's not him in the picture (it would be Talleyrand instead) but I don't believe it. The features of this cinically smart, cooly outrageous feline predator are typically Antoine's. More, I love it to be him 


Ps.: I added those golden earrings and stole over the verses on a yellow background from Rimbaud - thank you, Arthur !






Louis Antoine Saint-Just after me & Greuze 2

Other (and beloved) portrait. I have seen it only on a b/w version so the colour (included that kitsch one of his clothes) is mine too.

(If you want to see the portraits in an enlarged and higher definition version then check my DeviantArt: http://www.fatimahcrossin.deviantart.com)



Saint-Just's portraits raise a question - the well-known one of his physical appearence: how did he really look like ?
We know many portraits, prints, engravings etc. all featuring him but each one of them shows a man who looks completely different from the others (I am sure you know all his portraits - if there is anyone who doesn't here it is a good link with a rather complete list of his iconography: http://www.saint-just.net/arts.html).
 Plus, written accounts aren't of much more help. His contemporaries' witnesses vary one from another and they are often in an open contradiction. So again: how did Antoine really look like ?
Despite what it is often commonly said, I believe physical appearence is (at least in a certain way) "the mirror of personality" - an old Sicilian proverb tells - and physiognomy has its reasons to be, I guess.
Antoine was handsome, yes, this appears to be the most common opinion about its physical appearence - how was he handsome ?

Comments

[hanriotfran.livejournal.com]

Hi, Fatimah!:

I've also written an entry about Saint-Just birthday in my diary. I'm happy and melancholic at the same time.

I've been thinking about the question "Saint-Just physical appareance" long ago my enetring here...and I couldn't solve it! We all know how Robespierre must have been. Danton was quite well shown in all portraits I know about him. Even Hanriot was "very similar to himself" if we can said it this way , if we compare his portraits among them. But there is some cases in which EACH portrait is different to the nex one. Wich ones? Saint-Just's of course...but also Desmoulins, and Barère, and Hébert, and Collot-d'Herbois and Couthon, and Théroigne de Méricourt...For pity sake! How these people really looked like? Desmoulins is the most weird of all the cases: in some portraits he looks gorgeous, in others, a real monster! And Antoine de Saint-Just is always a handsome young man..but in some portraits he appears as having deep black eyes, in others, his eyes are blue; the "hair question" is pretty similar: in some portraits he has black or brown hair, in others, he is a "blondin". Without mentioning other physical features as his nose and mouth. There is paintings in which we may see a big, long nose; in others he has a pretty, tiny one. Some artist depicts him as having tick lips; others shows him with THIN ones...GRRRRR!!!!

Yes; Fatimah. How did he REALLY looked like our Antoine?

Well; Happy Birthday, Louis Antoine!

HanriotFran (Vanesa)

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

I have noticed heavy differences regarding not only his features (-> I mean the colour of his eyes, the shape of his lips etc.) but also his expression - that is even more important, I believe.
A portrait like Hamel's (http://saint-just.net/art/hamel4.jpg) shows a young man who looks severe and austere at the utmost (it reminds me of some kind of German priests !), while the well-known David's features a man who has a vein of melancholy and sadness in his eyes, an air of gloominess which surrounds him someway and suggesting a kind of introverse, withdrawn personality. If we take Greuze's portraits we find a rather cynical dandy and Prudhon's is something further more different... All this things despite the portrayal of his strict physical appearence !

[hanriotfran.livejournal.com]

Yep. I understand what are you meaning. But in all historical portraits you'll find the same, or almost the same.

And how do you imagine Saint-Just was? For me, he could be severe as a "German Priest" (as you've said above) but he also was melancholic and poetic. People is not in the same mood every day of the year. You'll notice this even in photos. Sometimes, people looks feisty in some of them...But they could look sad in others. Expression could change with your moods and even if you have a current character, moods could change. In this, I think that portraits are inferior than photos. You may have a lot of photos of a same person, but less portraits, and you must go purposely to have a portrait of you painted by an artist. Photos are casual and more spontaneous.

What a pity there were no photos at French Revolution times...

HanriotFran (Vanesa)

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Well, of course people's expression vary considerably according their mood - we are not statues, it is obvious, isn't it ? So, taken this into account I just think that the "spirit" of the painting is very different from that of taking a photo. If you take a photo you catch the moment - it is a snapshot recording reality as it is exactly there, but if you are a painter and you have to make a portrait I guess you have to go beyond what you are seeing just in front of you and try to grasp the essence of what you have to portray... I believe portraits are not realistic because of this, firstly ! (And then yes, there were rules and conventions about how to portray people and oh, people liked to be painted in a certain way rather than others...)

I imagine Saint-Just very severe, but not as Hamel's "German priest" XD XD-> this portrait features a kind of empty coldness I don't feel appropriate to the subject ! I rather imagine him as a mix between Prudhon's portrait (who looks severe too, but in a different way - not only this, it's much more mysterious and nuanced) and David's, which I am personally not fond of, I believe it is very realistic, though (if you read Charles Nodier accounts of Saint-Just's physical appearence you will find something very similar to David's version !). And you ? How do you imagine him ?

Really a pity they didn't have photos !! I imagine a photo reportage of Danton's trial... *gg* :D

[hanriotfran.livejournal.com]

Hi, Fatimah!:

Well; before I said how I imagine Saint-Just, here it is something I had promised to you: a link with Argentinian National Anthem music:

Here you go:

http://www.iruya.com/kumiko/himno_nacional_argentino.htm

I warn you it's not the better version I've heard. The one we sang at school was very moving, but the only thing the web seems to have is some sappy, modernized versions of it. This is the slightly better of them I've found. But al least, you'll know how the music is similar too...

How I Imagine SJ? Severe, yes, but not cold. He is a sort of a mix between a severe man and a dreamer. Dreamers could be severe too. I imagine him with dark hair and blue eyes.

In fact I imagine him as a mix between the Proudhon portrait and Greuze's one...

And speaking about Saint-Just portrayals...Which Saint-Just was your favorite at THE SCREEN? I'll say my answer later, but by now, I could advance that Christopher Thompson is clearly out of my list of favorites...:D

HanriotFran (Vanesa)

[wolfshadow713.livejournal.com]

I'd imagine some of the discrepencies in accounts of Saint-Just's appearance are dependant on the sympathies of their authors insofar as how creepy/cold he looked. And paintings, of course, often glossed over physical imperfections (which I wonder about in the case of Danton) or accentuated them (as in the case of some of the later images of Robespierre), but that still doesn't explain the inconsistancies in hair color and eye color, I guess.

The strange thing is that Saint-Just retains such a physical prsence in history that one is inclined to forget these discrepencies until reminded of them. In most accounts of him, he seems so present, his gestures and facial expressions recorded, that it is easy to forget we don't actually know what he looked like.

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Quite agree with what you've said.

It is true that although Saint-Just's features remain unknown there is something like an aura, a "Saint-Just's way" his figure evokes. So, if we can't "see" the real Saint-Just as he were we can "feel" him indeed.

[wolfshadow713.livejournal.com]

Personally, I find Saint-Just one of the hardest figues of the time to make sense of. Robespierre's motivations I can sort of understnad, but there is a distinct element of mystery to Saint-Just. In my experience trying to understand Saint-Just's mind and motivations is like looking into a dark room: you know there are things in there and can vaguely sense them, but you can't make sense of what they are. My first assessment of Saint-Just was that he was simply obsessed with power, but then I realized that is not the case, but I cannot figure out exactly what is.
I think this unfathomability of his character and motivations are what lends him the "aura." It is thus rather appropriate that the pictures of him vary so much.

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Mmm, I have to admit I rather find Robespierre more difficult to understand than Saint-Just, but I believe this is just a matter of personality, compatibility etc. Though I know what you want to say.
I think your intuition of his "power obsession" is a close explaination, but not in the sense commonly conceived - because in Saint-Just's case "power" shouldn't be meant in a strict political sense, with a merely "earthly" connotation. A wider range of meanings for the concept should be assumed. The philosophic cathegory of the nietzchean "Uebermensch" and the religious-antropologic archetype of the "dionisiac" would help us rather well. Of course this doesn't mean Saint-Just was some kind of an obsessed "Superman" (OMG !), but he strongly felt pushed to go beyond himself and he was eager of the intense sensations this pursue gives.
I have read very much about him, but I still believe that the keenest descriptions of his personality are that of Albert Camus and André Malraux, who are antropology-inclined philosophers, plus men of action and not professional historians. Saint-Just intensely looked for power as his own's mean to transcend his Ego, so this power had to be something embracing all the aspects of human life: power as a whole expression of vitality. Because of this his behaviour (and his personality in general too) could seem so contradictory and mutable... I guess Antoine was drunk, drunk of himself - or this is what he longed for, at least :)

[wolfshadow713.livejournal.com]

I tend to find Robespierre a bit easier to understand because, in retrospect, the progression of his extremism is devostatingly logical (though when I remember the peaceful and just lawyer from Arras, it is shocking hard on a more emotional level to see that that is the same man who went to the Guillotine in Thermidor).

Your assessment of Saint-Just as a bit of an "Uebermensch" is intersting. It would be a good subject for debate. He clearly embraced the notion that social convention must be broken and should be broken by the "right" people to bring change, but he lacks the "noble man's" spontineaty and was obsessed with notions of morality, obviously believing in a clearly defined good and evil--traits of the slave morality as explained in Geanology of Morals. Still, for all practical purposes, I think your classificaiton is accurate, though more in Dostoevsky's interpretation of the Extraordinary Man (see Crime and Punishment) than a pure nietzchean interpretation.

[citoyenneclark.livejournal.com]

These are amazing! You've got quite a talent.

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Thank you !

[citoyennemiyuki.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that, there are no same portraits about him. Of course I always see when the portrait was painted. I don't know why they painted him with blond hair in the 19th century XD (I know, we have already speak about this).....
I'm glad you posted your arts to here....^^

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Yes, I remember this discussion :)

Anyway I don't feel him as a pure blondin XD

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

I came across a story that the 19thc artist David d'Angers borrowed a pastel drawing of Saint-Just from Élisabeth Le Bas to make a portrait from (maybe the bronze medallion, the one on the cover of Bernard Vinot's book?), and when she saw the finished sculpture she became very emotional because it was so like him. I can't remember where I found the story - it might have been in an online book about David d'Angers.

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Mmm, interesting information - thank you ! I have to search for this book on the web.
Anyway David d'Angers' Saint-Justs are among my favourites so I would be very well pleased if he really looked like that :D


Btw.: apart from the medallion it could be also the marble bust (http://saint-just.net/art/bustdangers.jpg), couldn't it ?

[hanriotfran.livejournal.com]

Hi, Fatimah!

I've forgotten to say that your art is amazing. I'm a perfect idiot drawing and painting...I'm very pleased to discover , here, what a great quantity of people IS an artist! Congrats to all of you, people!

HanriotFran (Vanesa)

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Thank you !

Saint-Just...Virgo?

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

I assume he was a Virgo...but very close to being a Leo.

The woman in my life was born on the 26th...so that's very very close to being an amusing coincidence. My own birthday is very close to Billaud-Varenne's, but not quite that close. (In the day and the month, not the year!)

As far as the differing versions of how he looked...that reminds me of the old story that George Washington (first President of the USA) was portrayed in differing ways. Some even claimed that it wasn't the same man. I think it was Robert Anton Wilson who suggested (probably at least partly joking) that Washington had been replaced by Adam Weishaupt of the Bavarian Illuminati.

Also...the idea of taking portraits from the past and recasting them into the present is cool.

Re: Saint-Just...Virgo?

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

I have always believed he had the Ascendent in Leo :) his Moon was very likely in Leo too (I think he had a lot of typical Virgo features, although !)

Once I had a relationship with a man who was born exactly on the 25th - when he told me it first I thought he would have been the man of my life ! But later I realized it wasn't so XD Nonethless he was rather fashinating. So were you born on 23th April ? Very nice coincidence ! Do you think you are someway similar to Billaud, anyway ?

Well, your story about Washington's portraits suggests me lots of interesting backgrounds like the links with the Masonry etc... I also often wonder what was really the role of the Masonry in French revolution as well.

Oh, I want to portray Antoine in modern clothes as a dark-inclined dandy :D

Re: Saint-Just...Virgo?

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

Very close to the 23rd...the 19th actually. An Aries that missed being a Taurus by a day. I'm glad I wasn't born on the 20th...that was Hitler's birthday! As far as my being like BV...I could see myself doing some of the same things in the same situations as portrayed in the Conte book. But I don't know if I would have had the will required to handle all the bloodshed. But then again, I'm not living in a time and place where the only way to overthrow a corrupt tyranny was by using force. It could be argued that I'm living under a corrupt tyranny right now. But at least it has a time limit and I get to vote on it.

Regarding the man born on the 25th...even if he had the same Sun sign as Saint-Just his moon and planets were probably not the same.

Regarding the Masons...if I recall correctly many of players in the Revolution were Masons. So I'm sure this contributed to events and allowed for some behind the scenes agreements. But I'm very sceptical that there were any "secret chiefs" that we don't know about. The people we all know were such powerful personalities that I don't think anyone was pulling their strings.

We could always start a story that there was more than one man claiming to be Saint-Just and that the real one escaped Thermidor.

Re: Saint-Just...Virgo?

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Eh, I think that voting, unfortunately, doesn't give us all the decisional power we imagnine it should give...

Of course, his planets are completely different form Saint-Just's. Luckily astrology provides billions of different combinations - so every human being is different from any other else. Even twins :)

I agree. I also know French Masonry liked the revolution and it was pleased with a republican nation which could seconde its interests. So it didn't make remarkably oppositions, I guess !
I have read on an Italian biography about Saint-Just (Mazzucchelli's - the only ever written in my language) that he was very likely a mason from the age of 17. This could explain many mysterious aspects of his life: his surprisingly quick career, the publication of "Organt" (which required much money and courage from the editor), his easy contact with the revolutionary entourage etc. But I have read this thing only there. No other source I know makes mention of an eventual Saint-Just's appartenance to the French Masonry...

Hehehe XD XD

Re: Saint-Just...Virgo?

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

When I wrote..."But I don't know if I would have had the will required to handle all the bloodshed. But then again, I'm not living in a time and place where the only way to overthrow a corrupt tyranny was by using force"...I was in a more mellow mood.

Today I'm so disgusted with the politics in my country that I'm feeling a lot more empathy for BV's willingness to "remove" the regressive elements of his society.


Hehehe, I would remove all the politic estate in my own land, whether with force or not. All in a whole block !
None deserves to be rescued. This is how things go on nowadays...


(I deleted your last 2 posts for a mistake - I'm sorry ! I added one here and I will add the other in my next one - in italics)

[hanriotfran.livejournal.com]

Hehehe. Our president is not a "good think" neither. I share completely your appreciations: "if enough people in a democracy voted ITELLIGENTLY, it would have an effect. But that's the problem..."

HanriotFRan (Vanesa)

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

That's too bad about your president...wasn't there hope for her at first?

In two months we'll see if the USA makes the wrong choice again.