revolution_fr | Monthly Discussion Point: Maximilien Robespierre

This is... broad. Perhaps it might help in future to have slightly more narrowed down discussion questions...?

In any case, I could talk about Robespierre at Louis-le-Grand, if anyone's interested, since I'm currently writing a paper on the Université de Paris.

I'd definitely be interested.. haven't seen much about that period of his life

I could talk about Robespierre at Louis-le-Grand.

Yes, immensely so. Specifically what he was likely to be reading or studying. Very specifically, would he have been able to get his mits on Plutarch's writings on women like:

So it is ridiculous to maintain that women have no participation in virtue. What need is there to discuss their prudence and intelligence, or their loyalty and justice, when many women have exhibited a daring and great-hearted courage which is truly masculine?

Sorry, biological determinism is my pet skeeve at the moment, and I run into the Erotikus almost by accident, and then I couldn't help thinking, goodness I wonder if Robespierre read that. From it's title it doesn't seem like the sort of book they'd be encouraging boys to read.

I'm not going to do anything as horrible as turn Robespierre into a teenage feminist, I was just thinking, well, was there a moment when the idea that humanity was mutable became real?

According to L.W.B. Brockliss, who along with Dominique Julia, seems to be the main scholar of secondary and higher education in late 18th century France, "In Greek most students would only have read extracts from Aesop, Lucian, Homer, and Demosthenes. The first was read in the lower classes (if texts were studied), Lucian in the third and second, and the last two in the rhetoric. If alternatives were used at all, the list would primarily have comprised the Greek New Testament (either the Gospels or Acts) for beginners, Xenophon's Cyropaedia in the second (an appropriate choice), and a speech by Isocrates in the rhetoric, usually the Ad Nicoclen. Lucian and Homer were always on the textual menu, the first generally studied through the Dialogue of the Dead, the latter through several books of the Iliad or Odyssey. [...] Above all, no one would have had the opportunity to read the Greek historians and dramatists, except occasionally the odd life of Plutarch (1).

(1) In 1727 Rollin claimed that exercises on Plutarch were common and one exists for the Coll. de Beauvais from 1712; Plutarch was also set on several occasions for the Paris agrégation and was definitely read at Sorrèze [...]" - Brockliss, French Higher Education in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries: A Cultural History

In other words, if he read Plutarch in school at all, it would have been one of his lives. (And he almost certainly read all of them later, whether in Greek or in translation.) To answer the question of whether he could ever have read the Erotikus, I would say it depends on how good his Greek was and/or whether there was a translation available. We know he knew Greek, but students had to be much less proficient in it than Latin, so he might not have been at the level where doing extracurricular reading in Greek would be very enjoyable. Still, you never know.

In any case, Teenage Feminist!Robespierre would be some kind of superhero. An inaccurate one, but it amuses me none the less. XD;

Thank you! Thank you for the prize list too.

In Greek most students would only have read extracts from Aesop, Lucian, Homer, and Demosthenes.

What no Plato? They didn't study Plato? Or am I getting this stupidly wrong?

In any case, Teenage Feminist!Robespierre would be some kind of superhero. An inaccurate one, but it amuses me none the less. XD

I realy like the idea of inaccurate superhero!Robespierre. Really, he could turn up mysteriously wherever acts of social injustice are taking place and fight the oppressors with his ninja-legal aid lawyer skills and superior reason. Or something, as long as he didn't have to run fast or shoot straight. He's even got the absent-minded cover-persona, the geeky glasses and the animal side-kick. Yes, yes, it is late, very late I should probably lie down, but why should the Royalists get all the inaccurate superhero fun?...sorry about that.

You're welcome.

Apparently not. At least, Brockliss doesn't mention him. Odd, isn't it?

That would be adorable. If I had more skill with that kind of thing, I would totally make a comic out of that.

I'll add more when I've written my paper(s), but since it's Robespierre's birthday today - Joyeux anniversaire, Maxime ! - I thought I'd give a small preview of things to come in the form of prizes he won at Louis-le-Grand in the competition that took place among the ten major collèges of the Université de Paris (of which Louis-le-Grand was one, after the expulsion of the Jesuits in 1762).

Maximilianus Maria Isidorus de Robespierre
Atrebas (né à Arras)
e collegio Ludovici Magni

Maximilien Marie Isidore de Robespierre
Atrebas (born in Arras)
From the collège Louis-le-Grand

Concours de 1771
Classe de quatrième
6e accessit de version latine

Competition of 1771
Class of the Fourth [Robespierre entered Louis-le-Grand in the Fifth but won no prize that year. The easiest class was the Seventh, then the Sixth, and so on to the Second. Students in these classes were called Grammarians. Next came Rhetoric, and then Philosophy, which included Math, Physics, Logic, Metaphysics and Ethics. This is where secondary education ended. Students could then go on to study Theology, Medicine or Law. Robespierre chose the latter--to clarify, not all scholarships allowed students to choose; some only covered one or two of the higher faculties, most often Theology.]
8th prize - Latin translation [I translate both prix and accessit as prize, but the latter really means honorable mention. There were only two prizes awarded, after which honorable mentions began. Thus, the 1st accessit is really the equivalent of 3rd prize and I've made that calculation here. All prizes for translation are from the language specified into French.]

Concours de 1772
Classe de quatrième (vétérans)
2e prix de thème latin
6e accessit de version latine

Competition of 1772
Class of the Fourth (veterans) [Repeating classes does not always indicate failure the first time around. Students repeated classes (especially rhetoric, but also others, as can be seen here) for a variety of reasons, typically most importantly because a given subject was important to them and they wanted to make sure they had as firm a grounding as possible in it. Students would have to repeat classes if they did not pass the exams given at the end of each year, as in the case of Larevellière-Lepeaux, who had to repeat his Second before he could move on to Rhetoric for that reason, but given that Robespierre had won a prize the first time around, this does not seem to be case here.]
2nd prize - Latin theme [A composition in Latin on a given topic.]
8th prize - Latin translation

Concours de 1774
Classe de seconde
4e accessit de vers latins
4e accessit de version latine

Competition of 1774 [Robespierre won no prizes in the Third]
Class of the Second
6th prize - Latin verse [Students would have to take a Latin prose piece and recompose it into verse, poetically and in keeping with the meter]
6th prize - Latin translation

Concours de 1775
Classe de rhétorique (nouveaux)
2e prix de vers latins
2e prix de version latine
4e accessit de version grecque

Competition of 1775
Rhetoric Class (new students)
2nd prize - Latin verse
2nd prize - Latin translation
6th prize - Greek translation

Concours de 1776
Classe de rhétorique (vétérans)
3e accessit de version latine.

Competition of 1776
Rhetoric Class (veterans)
5th prize - Latin translation

For purposes of comparison, here are the prizes won by some contemporaries:

Joannes Maria Hérault de Séchelles
Parisinus
ex Harcurio (collège d'Harcourt)
(Hérault de Séchelles, le conventionnel)

Jean-Marie Hérault de Séchelles
Parisian
From the collège d'Harcourt
(Hérault de Séchelles, the member of the Convention)

Concours de 1770
Classe de trosième
4e accessit de vers latins

Competition of 1770
Class of the Third
6th prize - Latin verse

Concours de 1771
Classe de seconde
2e prix de version latine

Competition of 1771
Class of the Second
2nd prize - Latin translation

Andreas Maria de Chénier
Constantinopolitanus
e Regia Navarra (collège de Navarre)

André-Marie de Chénier
Born in Constantinople
From the collège de Navarre

Concours de 1778
Classe de rhétorique (nouveaux)
1er prix de discours français
1er accessit de version latine

Competition of 1778 [Someone who knows more about Chénier will have to let us know whether the reason we have only prizes for one year is because this is the only year he attended collège in Paris, or whether he attended other years without winning anything - which seems unlikely, given his success in the year we do have information for.]
Rhetoric Class (new students)
1st prize - French discourse
3rd prize - Latin translation

Lucius Simplicius Camilla Benedictus des Moulins
Guisius Laudunensis (né à Guise)
e collegio Ludovici Magni

Lucien-Simplice-Camille-Benoist Desmoulins
Born in Guise
From the collège Louis-le-Grand

Concours de 1774
Classe de cinquième
2e prix de version latine

Competition of 1774
Class of the Fifth
2nd prize - Latin translation

Concours de 1775
Classe de quatrième
2e prix de thème latin
1er prix de version latine

Competition of 1775
Class of the Fourth
2nd prize - Latin theme
1st prize - Latin translation

Concours de 1778
Classe de rhétorique
9e accessit de discours français

Competition of 1778
Rhetoric Class
11th prize - French discourse

Edited 2010-05-07 02:10 (UTC)

Chénier was born in Constantinople?

Yeah. His father was a merchant there, apparently.

Cool.

Oops, I forgot the source. Here it is now: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k61457h.image.hl.r=laur%C3%A9ats+concours+1747+1793+.f271.langFR

Robespierre was supposed to present his essay of 1775 to the king and queen, wasn't he? Do you have any info on what his translation was?

I'm curious, now that you've posted all that research :)

Actually, it was a Latin address composed by his professor, according to Proyart, the source for that anecdote, and considering this took place in 1775, we can know more specifically that it was by Hérivaux, the professor of rhetoric.

Just out of interest, how reliable is Proyart as a source for Robespierre's childhood/ schooldays? It seems to get quoted a lot, although possibly because nothing else is available, but it's very obviously wildly inaccurate about his adult life?

Also where is that portrait of mini-Robespierre from?

Sorry to ask you more questions at such a busy time for you.

The reason we use Proyart is that, apart from official records and Charlotte's memoirs, it's the only real source we have. And Proyart is more accurate than Charlotte, generally, because he was actually there and Charlotte wasn't. (For example, Charlotte translates "Maximilien was good in school" into "he almost always won first prize," which, as we can see from the official records, is just not true.) Still, it's best when we can corroborate what Proyart says. (We can't, I don't think, for the incident where he reads the address to the king, but most historians think it's accurate because being chosen to do that reflects rather well on Robespierre and Proyart probably wouldn't have made it up for that reason. In any case, I could be wrong that it's not corroborated elsewhere...)

I'm actually not sure where the original of the portrait of Robespierre as a child is from. I've seen it in books and around the internet, but I don't recall seeing a source. Which is frustrating, but what can you do?

Don't worry about the questions; I just finished my last exam and once I'm done revising my paper tomorrow, I'll be done for the year.

I'm actually not sure where the original of the portrait of Robespierre as a child is from. I've seen it in books and around the internet, but I don't recall seeing a source.

The only attribution I've seen was in a dodgy 19th Century googlebook which says "from a portrait by Boze" which seems wrong for various reasons - I wondered if was an attempt by someone to imagine a young Robespierre from the Boze painting.

This book also states that Robespierre did not live at LLG while taking his degree, but got a evening job doing legal copyist work, which paid for digs and nice hair, giving Hamel as a source. I have to admit, I'm rather fond of Robespierre working through college, but I've never seen it mentioned anywhere else, so I assume it is bunk. Any idea if there's any truth in ramen noodle Robespierre?

most historians think it's accurate because being chosen to do that reflects rather well on Robespierre and Proyart probably wouldn't have made it up for that reason.

And it would have been a fairly audacious thing to make up, I suppose. There'd have been plenty of other people around who would remember that particular event.

I just finished my last exam and once I'm done revising my paper tomorrow, I'll be done for the year.

Congratulations!

That seems unlikely to me; Boze did paint an early portrait of Robespierre before his official training began, but Robespierre was already in his twenties when he posed for it, and it's much less skillfully execuated than the child Robespierre portrait.

Robespierre was definitely living at Louis-le-Grand while he studied law. It was stipulated in his scholarship. However, it's entirely likely that he apprenticed - for lack of a better word - with a practicing lawyer, as this was permitted and even encouraged for law students. Hamel is actually not a bad source, since he often quotes from primary sources that one would otherwise have to dig through an archive to find.

I agree, there were still plenty of people living who could have invalidated Proyart's statement if it were false. On the other hand, though, some pretty audacious lying about facts that people were around to remember was going on c. 1795. (Still, I don't think Proyart's lying here. It just wouldn't make any sense.)

Congratulations!
Thanks! :D

Edit: Ughhh. When you said "portrait", I thought you all meant the descriptive portrait, not the painting. Sorry. Got confused since you were talking of Proyart. :/

I'm actually not sure where the original of the portrait of Robespierre as a child is from. I've seen it in books and around the internet, but I don't recall seeing a source. Which is frustrating, but what can you do?

I might be ready to make an answer on this, but it's basic -- because obviously I haven't yet read so many freaking sources of 400 pages and what more!!1! /insanity.

As I see it from my corpus (which is quite ~~too~~ spread), the childhood part stems from the "biographical/historical genre", which during the Thermidorian Reaction is mainly Montjoie and Proyart. This genre seems to have evolved from the portraits: L. Duperron begins with a few very simple phrases on Robespierre's youth, but not any more, and it's basic.

It seems a lot more came later in the late 1820s -- yes, from Charlotte, but also from Charles Reybaud and Laignelot (who was close to Robespierre) who participated in writing the Mémoires authentiques de Robespierre (which are obviously not). There's only two volumes of those, and they're mostly on Robespierre's childhood and youth. I think it builds up to the États Généraux and that's all. Sergio Luzzatto (author of Mémoire de la Terreur) explains that Charlotte, even if she denied her participation to it, must have had given some details, because those present in the Mémoires authentiques weren't known yet (and I assume show up in Charlotte's own memoirs).

Apart from this, a lot seems to be copy/pasted from narratives around the "poor, envious and frustrated child grows into rebellious leader/assassin" trope. Now, that genre is rather vast.

I wonder if you could find the same sort of stuff written on Cromwell...

Edited 2010-05-24 17:52 (UTC)

Merci! I appreciated you taking the time out to answer me, out of what must be a hectic schedule :D

You're quite welcome.

Monthly Discussion Point: Maximilien Robespierre

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