Welcome to 1789...

If you want to re-enact anything concerning Marat, give me a heads-up, I can get you anything you'd like! (But I'm PRETTY sure you'd be interested about his death, I can give you what REALLY happened)

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Sure, send me stuff on his death. But if you can give me details - and speech - of anything he actually said, I'll throw it in. ^__^ Obviously edited into somewhat more speakable length, but ne'ertheless, it'll be good to give him a speaking part! The only reason we hadn't fretted about it before was because we didn't know anything good for him.

Email me with details, please! Thanks!

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Oooh~ I can give you speeches! I'll take me a bit though (I'll have to re-type them >_<;) Oh no worries! I'll edit it myself~

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Yay! Thank you very much!

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Out of curiosity, could you also give me a quick description of what he would wear in a given situation? I know only very vague details and he is one of the more...differently dressed than most of them. ^^ Thanks!

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Sure can! ACTUALLY, if you look at my post I recently did, theres a couple of pics of him!

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rs09985.livejournal.com

Marat was delighted when Corday said she held a list of traitors. He immediately exclaimed, "They will be guillotined the following day!"

Just a helpful side note.

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Thank you! We hadn't really planned on doing Marat's death scene - due to difficulties in bringing a bathtub into Central Park, where we hope to be holding this, - but anything is useful at this point, and maybe we'll figure something out. ^__^

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You'd need an old fashioned tin bath - they're actually quite light to carry, and they still make them (or maybe Britain is just backward, but I saw one hanging outside a hardware shop in posh Dulwich, South London last year). I'll try and scan you in some stuff on costume later today, but for starters, from the 1780's on a cravat was made of a piece of linen or muslin 5 feet long by 8 inches wide, folded in half lengthways, then passed front to back, then the ends back round the front and tied in a big girly bow, though by 1800-ish these had evolved into one made from an isoceles triangle 60 inches along the base, 12 inches high in fine muslin, pleated down to 3.5 inches, then centralised at the throat, the ends passed round the back, crossed, and tied in a smaller bow at the front: I don't know for sure, but the second sort looks like the Saint-Just incredibly high but slighly less effeminate neckwear style (he seems to be a neckwear pioneer, as well as giving the world the first Farrah Fawcett hair). These are from an English pattern book, but French fashion was heavily influenced by English at the time.

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Yes, I suppose, but keep in mind - we're students. Liberal art students trying to live on NYC prices, no less. Chances are if we're doing Marat's death scene, we're putting him in a cardboard box...this is a reenactment in good humor, after all. ^_^

That's very useful, thank you! Out of curiosity, do you know anything about the stockings of the time? I'm trying to figure out what would work...

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My scanner is being totally evil so I haven't managed to scan pics in yet, but the stockings were often pattern-knit or striped: hooray for Emo- it means you can now get vertical and horizontal striped knee-length socks all over the place. (historically, if silk, the silk would have been the knitted silk (I don't know the technical term, but not sheer like 20thc nylons): men would also wear full length tights under culottes (bear in mind elastic wasn't round yet, so stockings were then held up with suspenders at the knee, so I suppose in winter tights were more comfy and warmer). A modern woman's winter tights with a herringbone or more elaborate pattern may do. And culottes/pedal pushers or whatever they're called at the mo: you could stitch three buttons or a buckle to the outside of the knee for a more 18thc look, though some I bought recently from a high-stree shop were like that already (it's the Pirates of the Carribean influence, I suppose).

It was more fashionable to wear long trousers with boots, though. Robespierre's dress was curiously old-fashioned, given his politics: one bitch said he looked like 'an ancien regime tailor', another - a friend - that he wore 'clothes from another age'. Desmoulins and Saint-Just were more up to the minute. I suppose if he's in a bath, your Marat will be wearing nothing but a head towel and a smile (if you drape a white sheet over the cardboard box bathtub it'll look fine (medicinal baths were sometimes lined with a sheet)!

On coats/jackets, an army surplus military greatcoat, the sort that's double breasted so you can fold back the collar into two triangles, if you see what I mean, would look ok - but it'd be heavy, specially for summer. Last winter, in the UK at least, there were a lot of coats with a 1790-1820 look: outsize buttons, double breasted with the top buttons undone and the flaps folded back, and the style was also revived in the late 60's/early 70's (I've got a couple of coats that are pretty well 1790's replicas from the 1970's - very tight fitting, specially the arms.)

If you have it, take a look at A Series of Unfortunate Events: Count Olaf's whole outfit, in the first part of the film, looks suspiciously like Robespierre's striped number!

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Ugh, he wasn't so enthusiastic, just to note, she asked "what will you do to them?" and replied "they will be guillotined." and then she took out her knife and stabbed him

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rs09985.livejournal.com

ah, i knew he said something to that effect. But I guess history will never know exactly how enthusiastic he was. I could see him being bothered by Corday in the first place. But again, who knows..

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estellacat.livejournal.com

I would be interested to know your source on this; in the minutes of Corday's trial, all it says on the subject is this:

"He [Marat] asked this woman several questions about the deputies present in Caen, about their names and those of the muncipal officers; that the above mentioned Corday named them, upon which [declaration] Marat told her it would not be long before they would be punished for their rebellion."

(Qu'il [Marat] fit plusieurs questions à cette femme sur les députés de présents à Caen, sur leurs noms et ceux des officiers municipaux ; que ladite Corday les lui a nommés, sur quoi Marat lui dit qu'ils ne tarderaient pas à être punis de leur rébellion.)

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rs09985.livejournal.com

I thought I had remembered reading it in Carlyle's work, but I'm probably wrong. desole.

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estellacat.livejournal.com

Doubtless you did read it in Carlyle: it's just that he's less than the most reliable historical source.

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Please take photos/video tape. I've got to see this.

Didn't Camille jump on a chair on a table? Granted, this might be a bit dangerous, though.

Are you going to do 9th Thermidor? JB Morton's book on Saint-Just has his last speech in the back. (He only got to the first paragraph)

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Oh, yes, it's all going to be videotaped, don't worry! ^__^

And yes, he jumped on a table. We have a table. There will be table-jumping. With a pistol, even. (Provided we get something for him to say as he does! Really, at this point, we'd take anything we can get)

And yes, we're planning on it - I don't have that book, though, so if you do, could you transcribe it?

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Didn't he say somthing like: To Arms! To Arms! Citizen's of Paris to Arms!

Have you seen that scene in La Revolution Francais? They might have used his speech.

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I never managed to sit through it, but apparently it's included in 'Jefferson in Paris', too.

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This is my own English translation from the letter he wrote to his father about July 12.

...Sunday, all Paris was appalled by the dismissal of M. Necker. My emotions were aflame; no one was taking up arms. I joined them, they saw my zeal, they surrounded me, they pressed me to climb upon a table. In a minute I was surrounded by six thousand people. “Citizens,” I said, “You know that the nation had demanded that Necker remain, that a monument be built for him. They have chased him off! It is a slap in your face! After this coup, they will dare to do anything and maybe tonight they are plotting a Saint-Bartholomew’s Day Massacre of patriots!” I was choking under a wave of ideas besieging me, I was ranting. “To arms,” I cried, “To arms! Let us wear green cockades, the color of hope.” I remember that I finished with these words: “The despicable police are here! Let them see me, let them observe me well! Yes, it is I who call my brothers to liberty!” Raising a pistol, I said, “At least they will not take me alive, I know how to die gloriously. There’s nothing they can do to me that’s worse than watching France become a slave!” Then I descended, I was embraced, I was smothered in people’s arms. “My friend,” each person said to me, “We are going to protect you, we will not abandon you, we will follow you.” I said I didn’t want to command and that I only wanted to be a soldier of the country. I took a green ribbon and I attached it to my hat. How fast the blaze spread!...

I know various history books have cleaned it up and embellished it over time, so if you want I can look for a fancier version. There you have Camille's version though.

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Oh, thank you! That helps a lot. Do you think you can get me any actual words for the part that he summarizes? As in, the green ribbon part, the only want to be a soldier of the country parts? That would make it perfect. ^^

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Well, he does say "Let us wear green cockades, the color of hope." I don't think there are any specific transcriptions of what happened after he got off the table. I'm sure you can come up with something reasonably accurate ;-).

The other thing about the green cockade, of course, is that he used tree leaves in lieu of any real cockade and everyone followed suit. So you guys get to tear off a bunch of tree leaves.

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I'm pretty sure Camille then pulled off several leaves of the nearby lime tree. And said something about how green was the color of the revolution (the precursor to Greenpeace) :)

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again, I thought I was logged in. Great.

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Oh and of course your question about costumes. I am probably the resident historical clothing geek here, so I'll try to help you out with this. Do you just want some images of people or are you looking for more specific costume advice? Also, I know you said you are poor students, so I understand constraints ;-).

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Specific costume advice would be nice! Really, we're trying to pull things together and have something of a time constraint, too (the planned date for this is July 14th), so any advice you can give would be incredibly useful. Basically, we're trying to figure out 1, what would they wear, 2, what colors would they wear, and any minor details like that you can think of (important questions like "did they regularly wear a wig or not", "sans-culottes or not", "boots or shoes", "cravat and stockings - white or striped", etc).

We have Robespierre, Saint-Just, Desmoulins, Danton, Marat, Verginaud, Tallien, and Louis Capet; I think I've covered everyone but I probably haven't. Depending on the various sewing abilities of people, we may or may not have one person be dressed as a girl so we could do the Marat-Corday scene...

In short, absolutely anything is useful! ^___^ A good proportion of the people involved are not FR fanatics, so it's up to about four of us to clothe everyone else...-_-;;

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Alright! Here goes! First, some portraits of people for inspiration.

Robespierre
Circa 1790-1 (http://membres.lycos.fr/discours/robespierre_avant.jpg)
Circa 1793-4 (http://napoleonbonaparte.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/blog-portrait-robespierre.jpg)
(Dates are my guess there based on the cut of his coat)
Key things about dressing Robespierre: Always a wig, always breeches. Shoes instead of boots. Dress him up nicely, he was famous for dressing like it was still the ancien regime, after all. Give him a colored coat, blue seems to have been a favorite. Probably easiest to just go with plain white cravat and stockings for everyone. Give him a nice cravat that's not ridiculously froofy (but still a little froofy ;-)). Also, glasses if you want. Here's a pair of late 18th century spectacles. (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/19/113793977_ddea8c5ae6.jpg) I've seen stuff like that just by poking around old junkish sort of shops.

Saint-Just
Saint-Just (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Saint_Just.jpg)
Saint-Just (http://www.astrogeodata.it/2fc12580.jpg)
Something with those quality large lapels (http://www.chd.univ-rennes1.fr/Icono/Thiers/33ThiersHRFt0704StJust.jpg)
Dresses in more sober colors, but the main things for Saint-Just are 1) High cravat 2) High collar to go with said cravat and 3) If you can, make the guy wear some hoop earrings ;-). Go with breeches, no wig, shoes or boots.

Camille Desmoulins
Camille (http://www.nndb.com/people/480/000097189/desmoulins-1-sized.jpg)
Nothing particularly fancy dress-wise. Simple cravat. No wig, wear hair long. Boots or shoes. Breeches.

Danton
Best Danton clothing pic I could find (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Georges-Jacques_Danton.jpg)
Again, nothing really fancy. Wig, breeches, boots.

Marat
Marat (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Jean-paul_marat_1.jpg)
I bet kurotoshi could give you a better idea of what Marat wore. The general impression I got though was that he dressed badly on purpose. No cravat or an unwound one or some non-cravat type of neck wrapping. No wig. Ask kurotoshi.

Vergniaud
Vergniaud (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e4/Vergniaud.jpg)
A little nicer than Camille or Danton, but not Robespierre level. Breeches, shoes, wig, nicely done cravat.

Tallien
Without wig (http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/71099432.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=4FF206F6DF6174D8BF646DA79AC967CA284831B75F48EF45)
With wig (http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=26785&rendTypeId=4)
Clearly, with or without wig. Probably dressed along the same lines as Danton and Camille.

Louis XVI
All Kingly (http://www.nndb.com/people/230/000092951/louis-xvi-1.jpg)
For post-Revolution wear, I would give him a colored coat to make him stand out a bit, but obviously not super fancy. Nice cravat, always a wig, always breeches, always shoes.

If you end up doing Charlotte, here's (http://www.reprodart.com/kunst/joseph_nicolas_robert_fleury/portrait_charlotte_corday_176_hi.jpg) a nice image. Painted ex post facto, of course, but it's a good example of women's clothing of the time. Don't forget the fichue (the shawl).

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*nod* Thank you! *tilts head* Out of curiosity, I was always given to understand that Camille and Saint-Just, in particular, were more likely to be wearing trousers rather than culottes...which is useful because it's easier to find, and undoubtedly some people are going to end up very against-history without culottes anyway because it's easier. Presuming that we can give breeches to, say, two or three people, who must absolute have them most, do you think?

Thank you again!

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I've seen engravings of Saint-Just rocking those fab, tight mid-calf breeches, but I don't know if I've ever seen any in full pants. I've never seen images of Camille in anything but pants.

But as you said, you gotta go with what you've got. The people who absolutely need breeches are Robespierre and Louis XVI, I would say.

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Wigwise, if all else fails, you could always grease some unfortunate's hair and dust it with powder! I've never tried it and it sounds vile, but it might work. A good fancy dress hire shop should have a fairy tale prince wig that you could use, though.

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Some general costume thoughts... I don't know what you have access to, so here are some fairly low-budget suggestions. I always feel that rolled up socks look kind of blah as stockings, so my advice would be to go out and get some. Maybe you can find some knee-high socks that will work, but generally something thinner than sock material is ideal. As you're guys, this could be kind of difficult to fit you into something. One thought I had was if you could find some white tights that you could fit at least up to the knee. Cut them off just above the kneecap, hold them up with rubber bands or something, and then wear your breeches over them so it covers the rubber bands. (Look at Camille's breeches and stockings (http://www.blastmilk.com/decollete/gallery/guillotine/desmoulins01.jpg))

Breeches are kind of a pain cause while guys shorts could be long enough they need to be at least somewhat fitted! Check thrift stores, see if you can find any large sizes of the knee-length pants for girls that were really in last year, or to find cheap, more fitted pants that someone could cut off and hem at the knee. Appropriate colors are white, black, and beige/tan.

Shirts. Try thrift stores. I find they often have a generous collection of froofy white women's shirts from the 70s or 80s or god knows when. And they might even be large enough for guys to wear them. And some of them even have ready-made cravats attached! Not as important, since you should all be wearing coats over them, but if you can find something.

Waistcoats are an important piece of clothing that make the look, but are often neglected. It's too complicated to get very detailed here, but if you can find some sort of vest that isn't ridiculously colorful to wear over your shirt, it'll make it look better.

Coats are difficult because of course you're dealing with frock coats, not modern coats.
Back view (http://locutus.ucr.edu/~cathy/images/i-rd/rd14.jpeg)
Side view (http://www.manchestergalleries.org/our-other-venues/platt-hall-gallery-of-costume/the-collection/collection-themes/mcgweb/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=2359&size=237x350)
Try to find some knee-length coats. Take the front sides and fold them back and under (and sew it in place, not too hard, you can just baste it or even tack it) to give it the proper shape in the front. There is also a slit up the back, though it's hard to see in the back shot, that goes to about butt-level.

All you need for cravats are strips of foldable white cloth. Some thrift stores have "scarf boxes" where you might be able to find something appropriate. Or go to a fabric store and find a good material for cravats and get as small amount as they'll let you (probably can't get less than a yard) and then cut it into strips. I ran across some website once with ways to tie them... If I'll find it I'll link you, if not... Wind around and copy the portraits!

Boots should be knee high. You'd probably be able to get away with wearing some guys' dress shoes for shoes. Maybe stick buckles on em if you can ;-).

Good luck with wigs. Costume shop?

I am sorry this is so ridiculously long, but I hope it helps you come up with some reasonable clothing that's not too expensive. Thrift stores are nice. You're in NYC, so I'm sure you can find something! And good luck!

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Thanks for all the information! (And just as a note - it's a mixed group of guys and girls, with cross-playing. We have more girls than guys, and we need the people more than we need strict gender lines. ^^) But thank you for the advice! We'll certainly be taking a lot of it! ^____^

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http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/18thlinks.htm#French%20Revolution%20Period%20(1798-1800)

If that link works, it may have the costume patterns etc. It's a superb costumiers' website. These jpegs have patterns on - they're English and 1795 and, though French left-wing middle-class fashion borrowed heavily from sober English fashion, these seem to be going more French with the stripes etc. BUT it has a waistcoat pattern! May be useful, anyway. (Assuming these links work, too).

1795patternM.jpg1795patternF.jpg1795fashionpic.jpg

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Which they don't - I'll try posting them direct to revolution.fr instead.

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Thank you!

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I managed to upload them onto revolution.fr (god my internet is still slow!) - two patterns which may be useful. I also posted a couple of pics of cocardes, two different types, front and back to show construction, on my livejounal page earlier. I think cocardes were compulsory (or was that just for women for some bizarre reason?), and Convention members wore waist sashes (or shoulder to waist sashes) for formal occasions. Adam Ant in the Prince Charming video suddenly springs to mind (youtube?)...Vivienne Westwood dressed him, and she rips all her stuff off the V and A costume collection!

From: (Anonymous)

From Curtis's book on Saint-Just, he mentions that he often wore a blue double breasted coat, with large brass buttons, and riding breeches, and riding boots. As he was a very outdoors type, his best times were helping the army. So, I can defiantly see a military influence in his clothing.

Saint-Just's clothes should look like he can get on a horse at any moment and command an army. ie: one can wear them in action, unlike Robespierre's. Robespierre horseback riding...I'm have trouble imagining it.

From paintings, I've noticed that often the breeches had a tricolor ribbon at the end (right before the socks/tights begin) For breeches and stockings, one can always just take tan colored pants, and tuck them into a pair on knee socks.

I've got some drawing/studies I've done of various Revolutionaries, and their clothes. (Costuming is a bit of a hobby) I'll post them to revolution_fr.

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Ah, I thought I was logged in for that last post. It appears not.

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Speechwise, Verso have just published a paperback $14.95/£7.99 edition of some of Robespierre's speeches in english ("Slavoj Zizek presents Robespierre - virtue and terror")- they're cut a bit, though, and they don't include the death penalty speech, because it would presumably clash with the editor's opening thesis!. You could try online google books editions of 19thc histories as these often have great chunks of speeches in them: there are a few up there, G.H. Lewes, Carlyle and a couple of the French 19thc historians in English.

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Here is Saint-Just's last speech.
I belong to no faction. I will oppose them all. But factions can only be abolished by institutions, carrying with them guarantees; institutions which will trace the limits of the executive, and will once and for al time force human arrogance to submit to the yoke of the liberty of the people. Circumstances have decreed that this tribune should perhaps be the Tarpeian rock for him who would tell you that the Government has turned from the path of wisdom.

At this point in his speech, Tallien interrupts with a point of order, something along the lines of, Is this speech an individual speaking, or the will of the Committee? Yesterday's speaker spoke individually, which does not help the situation. As we need to work together.

And to put it in a cliche, after this, all hell broke loose.

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He only got this far, I can post the rest of the speech if you are interested.

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Oh, thanks! And yes, if you can post the rest of the speech, I'd be very interested!

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trf-chan.livejournal.com

Oooh, this sounds like a lot of fun! =D Good luck with it.

Here (http://www.marxists.org/history/france/revolution/robespierre/index.htm) are some speeches of Robespierre's. And Saint-Just's speech about the king (http://chnm.gmu.edu/revolution/d/325/).

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So, how did the it go?

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