Brotherhood (The)

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Are there any not-insane books, chapters etc (I've seen vague references to articles in 'Annales Historiques de la Revolution Francaise') on the role of Freemasonry / Illuminism in the Revolution? (Ken Campbell, theatre performer and benignly nutty theorist, died yesterday and it reminded me...I saw him do a performance in a masonic lodge in Edinburgh - it was being used as a temporary venue - and the iconography carved into the walls etc. was very similar that of the revolution's visual motifs). It seems to be either completely ignored in the 'regular' history books, other than occasional references - Claretie had some item of Desmoulins' masonic regalia, I think - or prompt lunatic frothing rantings in right-wing conspiracy theory books from Thermidor onwards. I presume regular historians don't want to go there because of the nebulousness or the weirdness it generally prompts, but if you're going to discuss Rousseau and co and their influence, it seems ridiculous to then ignore what is also so clearly a factor in the lives of the various players : it would make sense if the Breton deputies were freemasons, for example, but all discussion in books then either vanishes or becomes wild...(and very funny).

Comments

[trf-chan.livejournal.com]

I don't really know. :/ All I've ever seen is the insane, right-wing frothing you spoke of.

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Oh, the reply thing posted to the other bit...

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Yes, whilst the 'we Freemasons are happy and fun with a long and interesting history!' lodge websites like to claim Desmoulins as one of their own but always forget to mention Robespierre - now why is that...? There's a hilarious 70's acid-head spin-off from the 'Illuminatus!' sort-of-sci-fi trilogy which claims that Robespierre's 'illnesses', Couthon's alternative medicine breaks and Saint-Just's, er, missions, presumably - were in fact amazing fiendish secret covers for them to go off to secret illuminati training camps for programming like in 'the Manchurian Candidate'. Er, yes. Well. But it was nice to see Couthon getting a name-check, at least! (Oh, of course! He's Davros!)

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

On this same tangent...

A few years ago there was a book called _The Last Alchemist_, a serious and "just the facts" biography of Cagliostro that gives a good account of the Queen's Necklace affair without any wild flights of fantasy. I found it in the library, so I don't have the author's name at my fingertips.

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I've just looked it up on Amazon - sounds good! There was a very silly but entertaining old Orson Welles film on 'about' him a couple of weeks ago. Thinks - I wonder if there are Cagliostro fans or Rasputin fans who get pissed off by stuff like 'Hellboy' like I get pissed off with Scarlet Pimpernel films?

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I've never seen a Scarlet Pimpernel film.

This may or may not be heresy to admit, but I've never really delved into fictional takes on the Revolution...either cinematic or literary. The reality always provided enough drama for me :)

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

These discussions on Masonry caused my to recall the "Loggia P2" affair in Italy that came to light back in the 80s. Although it was right-wing and even crpto-facist, as I recall, a study of it might reveal some principles about how these things might work.

It's something I might take a closer look at some day, but the accounts in English that I've come across over the years are pretty short outlines. I would probably have to improve my Italian reading skills for that.

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

There are loads of different strands of Freemasonry, though - I get the impression the Italian ones are pretty murderous, which is a far cry from the 'Scottish Rite' 18thc stuff. The sort of Freemasonry described in 'War and Peace' is very close to Jacobinism - the most commonly occurring word is Virtue, and the stress that you have to make your own self an example of virtue, etc: the aims described in those chapters of War and Peace are pretty well a French Revolutionary credo, if you strip away the Solomon's Temple stuff. If that is an accuarate reflection of Freemasonry in that era, and many revolutionaries had a background in it, it's annoying and bizarre that it isn't discussed by historians!

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with you regarding the different strands of Masonry. P2 was probably atypical even in all that diversity. The reason I brought it up as an example is because it seemed to really be involved in conspiracy and secret plotting...and it has been exposed to at least some serious analysis.

Regarding Revolutionary times...perhaps the lack of discussion is due to a lack of documentation? If there were no official records kept of meetings and if no participant kept a private record that we know of...then that leaves us very little to talk about. And if Masonic Lodges played a role in the genesis of revolution perhaps the clubs took over that role once the members could meet and debate more publicly.

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

I've read that some of the Breton deputies who founded the Jacobins were masons - though the Jacobins turn the idea inside out in the emphasis on public access to debates (and public access to all sorts of things, the idea, not just of doing stuff, but of stuff being seen to be done) and, as far as I can gather, lack of mysticism. I was wondering if the masons or similar local organisations funded some of the election campaigns, though (how was Robespierre's funded, for example?

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

Would they have needed a lot of funding back then? No budget for television was required! Although it might be fun to think what kind of campaign advertisements some of these guys would have created if they did have television :)

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

It must have cost a fair bit, though - transport, printing, and you and your supporters presumably can't be earning your regular wage while you're on the campaign trail - none of the books I've read really go into this much, though. I want to get something on the economics of the pamphlet trade at some point, too!

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

P2, oh Goddess... there are thousands of accounts in Italian but most of them are quite (and often monsterously) biased. You know, many people envolved with it are still alive and even at their places !


Btw. one of the best known masons around end of XVIIIth century was W. A. Mozart. His best-known opera "Die Zauberfloete" is completely based on masonic exoteric symbolisms...

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Yes, I remember the 'god's banker' murder in London - he was someone on the Vatican bank, and was found hanging under Blackfriars Bridge over the Thames - very macabre! That was supposed to be P2-related. I think that sort of masonry is a long long way from the virtuous 18thc type!

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to feel like taking a look at it all again since it's not fresh in my mind. But it was definitely far from virtuous, I agree! It probably wasn't even Masonic...but more an attempt on the part of the extreme right, conservative elements in the Catholic church, and probably organized crime to manufacture a conspiracy based on the Masonic mythos. "Lets make our own Illluminati with a regressive spin!"

[victoriavandal.livejournal.com]

Heh - there were mutterings here about Formula 1 and Ferrari after the weekend's race results!

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

It was just an "Illuminati for money", yes ! Berlusconi has still a lot to thank it because of his surprisingly quick career !

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Yes, right ! But most things about it still remain obscure...

Hehe, I believe the Freemasonry began to change (badly) in the XIXth century when the Industrial revolution began to spread on a large scale requiring capital, capital, capital... the conquest of Sicily due to the reign of Piemonte which led to the actual Italian nation was all a dirty work of the international masonry, and it had nothing to deal with virtue !

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

If I remember correctly it was well documented that Berlusconi was a member.

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

Yes, he was... once I also remembered the number of his pass !

[chip-squidley.livejournal.com]

He's probably still using it!

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

:D :D :D

[fatimahcrossin.livejournal.com]

My ex-boyfriend, who is getting interested into the Freemasonry, gave me these links yesterday. It is the Italian site of the Scottish Freemasonry. Among an amount of things it provides this list of well-known personalities who were into it. Have a look !


Politicians, statesmen:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/newMassoni_celebri_statisti_politici.pdf


Famous patriots:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/newMassoni_celebri_patrioti.pdf


Writers, philosophers:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/new_massoni_celebri_Scrittori_filosofi.pdf


Kings, leaders of nations:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/newMassoni_celebri_re_capi_stato.pdf


Scientists:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/newMassoni_celebri_scienziati.pdf


Painters, sculptors, architects:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/new_massoni_celebri_pittori_scultori_archi.pdf


Musicians:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/new_Massoni_celebri_musicisti.pdf


Various:

http://www.massoneriascozzese.it/elenchimassonicelebri/newMassoni_celebri_personaggi_vari.pdf


Saint-Just and Desmoulins aren't mentioned, though... but this isn't a good prove of their being not envolved in it !

[citoyenneclark.livejournal.com]

Actually, Susanne Alleyn's next book is about Freemasonry and the French Rev. Her book are highly accurate. I'm sure you could e-mail her, and she'd send you in the right direction.